ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

[QUOTE=andreiDL;126126]Sorry rawtop, I just don’t get this. It’s the third time I think you state here that sponsors make money out of pirates - can you name who does? Or how does it work?

I just can’t understand how a sponsor can make money out of someone that steals their content and illegally distributes it. And I certainly can’t understand how they can make MORE money off pirates then affiliates.[/QUOTE]

This is how it works… The pirates are actually really good about responding to DMCA requests. That means Sponsor A is happy because their content isn’t being stolen. They find it a pain in the ass to have to keep doing DMCA’s but the pirate always responds quickly because he wants to keep Sponsor A happy. Thing is, Sponsor B isn’t so attentive and their full-length content is all over the site (with Sponsor A’s banner ad right next to it). But Sponsor A is like “well, that’s not my problem, the pirate takes my content down as soon as I ask.”

Then someone like me comes along and I’ll talk to Sponsor A 'cause we’ve built up a good relationship. I bitch about how hard it is to compete against the pirate. Since they’re giving away full scenes for free they have more traffic than I do and their hosting costs are significantly lower because they hotlink all the videos. Even though we’re on really good terms, Sponsor A gives me the “well they take down my content quickly when I ask” excuse and then flat out says “well, I make a lot of sales off them, I don’t really want to terminate them” (I’m told a number and it’s more than I average in a month).

Jesse also confirmed the fact that pirates can make significant sales in his post above. Given the choice between working with Manhub or working with me, most sponsors will chose Manhub. I think the reason is pretty simple. People don’t know how profitable porn will be in 5 or 10 years. They don’t even know if their business will be viable in 5 or 10 years, so they’re making all the money they can now - even if the way they make it is destroying the industry and in turn their business.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

I still say lawsuits are most likely to succeed. And DMCA’s to Google.

I agree that these would be the fastest methods to make a dent in their operations, and I can only say that there are some of us who are considering which actions to take behind the scenes.

However, like Michael said, I think the best thing to do is hit them on all fronts. If Affiliates take down all of their links to HazeCash sites, sponsors are banning them, processors refusing to take credit cards for them, and they are getting hit with lawsuits … then I think they will seriously think about changing their business practices. However, I think all talk and no action is pointless. So this will be my last post in here, I’ve said all I can on the subject and I do hope some others will make a statement and/or take actions.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

Yeah, I think that’s pretty much how this will play out. People just like to whine, they don’t want to do anything that might cost them something.

Manhub or Scuba Steve haven’t even bothered to post in this thread because they know after a couple of days it’ll burn itself out and all the whiners and Chicken Littles will be on to something else.

I’ll be completely gobsmacked if anyone does anything meaningful about this. If anyone is doing anything meaningful and wants some help, you know where to reach me.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

And here is the correct page at Google to report copyright infringement.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

I agree entirely with Rawtop observations, he has explained it very well!

Submitting DMCA requests is pointless, that’s what pirates and sites like ManHub wants you to do, you’re playing it by their rules enabling them to continue using stolen content as they wish. That’s how they survive and grow even bigger.

Have your DMCA requests stopped them from using your content? No, they will eventually have some more of your content and use it until you find it and submit yet another DMCA request… that’s running around in circles wasting your own time. Don’t forget it’s far quicker for them to respond to a DMCA notice than it is for you to submit one.

The only way to deal with them is as RawTop suggested (and don’t underestimate Google DMCA):

I still say lawsuits are most likely to succeed. And DMCA’s to Google.

Otherwise you might as well say; please steal our content, we don’t mind as long as you respond to DMCA notices…

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

[QUOTE=rawTOP;126127]This is how it works… The pirates are actually really good about responding to DMCA requests. That means Sponsor A is happy because their content isn’t being stolen. They find it a pain in the ass to have to keep doing DMCA’s but the pirate always responds quickly because he wants to keep Sponsor A happy. Thing is, Sponsor B isn’t so attentive and their full-length content is all over the site (with Sponsor A’s banner ad right next to it). But Sponsor A is like “well, that’s not my problem, the pirate takes my content down as soon as I ask.”

Then someone like me comes along and I’ll talk to Sponsor A 'cause we’ve built up a good relationship. I bitch about how hard it is to compete against the pirate. Since they’re giving away full scenes for free they have more traffic than I do and their hosting costs are significantly lower because they hotlink all the videos. Even though we’re on really good terms, Sponsor A gives me the “well they take down my content quickly when I ask” excuse and then flat out says “well, I make a lot of sales off them, I don’t really want to terminate them” (I’m told a number and it’s more than I average in a month).

Jesse also confirmed the fact that pirates can make significant sales in his post above. Given the choice between working with Manhub or working with me, most sponsors will chose Manhub. I think the reason is pretty simple. People don’t know how profitable porn will be in 5 or 10 years. They don’t even know if their business will be viable in 5 or 10 years, so they’re making all the money they can now - even if the way they make it is destroying the industry and in turn their business.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I do not see in this post how you answered my question. All I asked is HOW is the sponsor making money out of the pirate. I understand what you explained with Sponsor A vs Sponsor B (irrelevant to my question) and the affiliate situation. But it doesn’t answer exactly how is the sponsor making any money out of the illegal site.

I will stop naming Manhub, I also believe this thread is by now very disappointing and useless, so I will just call it Illegal Site.

Illegal Site posts a full video from Sponsor A. They rip off the intro / outro, crop the watermark and post no link to the sponsor what-so-ever. They re-name the scene. All they have is a big button “Join Illegal Site Premium” to get access to more content and download the scene.

How does Sponsor A get anything from this? How does he earn money?

Affiliate A posts a trailer or photos from Sponsor A. They use big banners that link to the sponsor. They name the sponsor. They keep the same video name, model names and so on. Everything is linked back to the sponsor and they get a fair share or a pay-per-sale.

How does Illegal Site get more money to the sponsor then the affiliate?

Also, Jesse explained that the PIRATE makes the money, and I understand that, what I am asking is how do sponsors make money out of these pirates.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

One suggestion to Dominic:

Use a more transparent system on PornGuardian.com.

Have a page called “Pirate Stats” where you list website names, how many DMCA’s you’ve sent, how many illegal files they posted and if legal action was taken against them.

Once that starts to fill up, I believe it will at least discourage new illegal tubes and file sharing sites to appear as they see that something IS being done. We can also contribute manually to that list.

Let’s just make it public - who is having illegal / suspicious activity and what measures we’ve taken against them.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

[QUOTE=rawTOP;126125]Unfortunately I think folks like Jesse & Lloyd are pretty close to reality here. I’m even more defeatist since I doubt their “solutions” are practical either.

[/QUOTE]

My solution sure isn’t practical. My point was in cases like this it really is affiliates that have the upper hand. Any affiliate can choose not to market a sponsor if they feel that they are doing something that is not ethically right.

Heck. I refuse to shop at Walmart. Walmart will not get a dime from me. Period. Am I making a difference? Nope. Do I feel good about myself at the end of the day. Yes.

There are some affiliates that are complaining about this issue both in public and private and they are still marketing sites by the company that owns this site. It easy to complain on a board, it’s much harder to actually take action.

Look at Champion Revenue. As a sponsor that program was a thorn in my side. Not because it converted possibly better than our sites. It was a thorn in my side because they had an unfair advantage by using “scraped” content. When 1000’s of sales a month went to a program like that, that was 1000’s of sales a month that didn’t go to programs that actually spent money on content. Affiliates promoted them until they had no choice. They supposedly went bust.

Affiliates really have a lot of power in this business if they choose to exercise that power. The problem is money talks.

Affiliates despise what this company is doing, but how many are willing to stop sending them traffic. Think about it.

Lloyd

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

Practical or not it’s the only sensible thing to do. Thanks Lloyd. Love you.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

[QUOTE=abostonboy;126139]Affiliates really have a lot of power in this business if they choose to exercise that power. The problem is money talks.
Affiliates despise what this company is doing, but how many are willing to stop sending them traffic. Think about it.[/QUOTE]

And this is the problem for many of us. There are lots of guys who aren’t pulling in huge money like some of the bigger blogs, so cutting off a sponsor who makes you a few hundred a month can really start to hurt.

But it works the other way, too, if a big blog is making 50 or 100 sales with a particular company walking away from that money is hard, too, especially when there’s not something else that can easily slide into their place.

And a big blog with lots of traffic is more easily able to play around: lost one sponsor, shift more traffic to another. For a small guy who may only be sending 50 clicks a day to a sponsor, it can take a long time to shift sales.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

[QUOTE=dzinerbear;126141]And this is the problem for many of us. There are lots of guys who aren’t pulling in huge money like some of the bigger blogs, so cutting off a sponsor who makes you a few hundred a month can really start to hurt.

But it works the other way, too, if a big blog is making 50 or 100 sales with a particular company walking away from that money is hard, too, especially when there’s not something else that can easily slide into their place.

And a big blog with lots of traffic is more easily able to play around: lost one sponsor, shift more traffic to another. For a small guy who may only be sending 50 clicks a day to a sponsor, it can take a long time to shift sales.[/QUOTE]

I agree with everything you just said. That is why I feel that boycotts and such are just not practical.

For me not shopping at Walmart is easy as there are other stores where I can buy the same items at maybe a slightly higher price.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

I think your asking how sponsors makes money out of the tube site’s “upgrade” promotion. They don’t. But they can still make a lot of money off banners that are displayed next to pirated content - so they are making money off an illegal (tube) site.

[QUOTE=dzinerbear;126141]And this is the problem for many of us. There are lots of guys who aren’t pulling in huge money like some of the bigger blogs, so cutting off a sponsor who makes you a few hundred a month can really start to hurt.

But it works the other way, too, if a big blog is making 50 or 100 sales with a particular company walking away from that money is hard, too, especially when there’s not something else that can easily slide into their place.

And a big blog with lots of traffic is more easily able to play around: lost one sponsor, shift more traffic to another. For a small guy who may only be sending 50 clicks a day to a sponsor, it can take a long time to shift sales.[/QUOTE]

Building on what you said - affiliate bloggers have their hands tied a little. When I put up a blog post it’s a long-term investment. It can make money for me years after I put it up. So bloggers don’t like to stop sending the traffic to the sponsor - it means losing an investment they’ve already shelled out the cash for. The people who are can “push traffic” are the people who are banner ad based - hookup sites, forums, and tube sites. Because their traffic can be turned off and on at will they’re the only affiliates who really wield much power. But notice who’s among that list - the tube sites that are the very problem we’re talking about.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

[QUOTE=dzinerbear;126108]That is such a defeatist attitude. If we were to follow this line of thinking affiliates would just start shutting down and finding employment outside the home. The tubes are getting all the traffic, the tube are killing sales, sponsors are cutting out the affiliate through email collection, sales are down, conversions suck … let’s all just quit. It’s pointless.

There is no ONE meaningful solution that will work here. I have already shown how talking about the affiliate cookie problem in public has gotten a number of sponsors to change their cookies. I also talked publicly about Buddy Profits collecting email addresses and sending out mailers that cut out the affiliate and Buddy Profits is working on a solution that will include affiliates in those sales, albeit working so very slowly. But they are working on it. So here are two examples of how one little guy can make a difference.

  1. A boycott could have an affect if enough affiliates jumped on board on stop sending Manhub, Haze Cash et al traffic and stopping selling these companies links on their sites.

  2. If enough sponsors had their videos removed from the Manhub system it could have an affect on their inventory.

  3. If sponsors and affiliates got together under one leader or a co-operation of a couple of leaders to create an organized attack, and those people sent out press releases as to what we were doing, others in the business would begin to take notice. The word would spread and it could actually inspire others to join us or to create actions of their own against other tube site owners.

  4. And if Manhub starts to see even a tiny dip in their traffic, they will have to buy more traffic. That cuts into their profits.

  5. If this co-operative group started to strong arm other people in the business, for instance Juicy Boys and Men.com who have both have big banners flying on Manhub over the past two days, then that starts to hurt Manhub a little more. Do this enough times and sponsors start to become afraid of buying ads on Manhub?

  6. Sponsors can report copyright infringement to Google, which could ultimately affect their placement in the SERPS, this means Manhub has to buy even more traffic.

  7. Sponsors can flood Manhub with DMCA notices, which chews into their inventory and creates work for their tube administrators.

  8. And yes, there’s legal action.

The way the Allies were finally able to defeat the Nazis was to come at them from several directions at the same time: the Russians from the east, and the western Allies from France, Holland, and Italy. You can’t fight a war on four fronts.

Likewise, Manhub can’t fight a war on eight fronts simultaneously. It will cost them money, traffic, labour resources, lawyers fees, and chew away at their will.

So far this thread is pretty disappointing. Only a couple of sponsors are speaking in this thread, why aren’t there more sponsors in here saying they’ll join this fight? It’s also pretty disappointing because whenever anyone tries to do anything meaningful, there are always the Debbie Downers pointing out the rain clouds.

Jesse, you’re right about one thing: no sponsor or affiliate (or very few) would be willing to put a sizable chunk on income on the chopping block. And without a majority support from sponsors and affiliates, these initiatives probably won’t amount to much. But it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try.[/QUOTE]

In short, I think they are all great ideas. The problem is look what happens whenever similar issues come up.

Whenever these ideas come up though I think of things like MR where the most vocal people would come back two weeks later when their payments were late and ask if anyone else was missing them. Call them out on it and they’ll say something about old links … well I used to have some old links to programs MR bought and as soon as I saw where things were going links were pulled. It was no easy task but bookmarkers are good business and you piss them off and you piss away the revenue they generate.

If the day ever comes that everybody does actually get together to accomplish something and is successful at it then I will be more optimistic. The reality is I have not seen enough people get together to affect the tubes. Maybe ongoing dialogue and discussion will change that but I am not going to hold my breath as I’ll probably die.

Right now, as US law is written, as long as they respond to DMCA requests in a timely matter (and they do) there is nothing that can be done. Sue somebody and they have a table of made up submitter IPs if they are actually uploading themselves. Sure you’ll win some battles if litigation is one of your methods of income generation but Manwin wouldn’t be as long as it is if it were as successful as people thought.

For the record, I felt the same way as an affiliate as I do today.

Tubes aren’t going anywhere until the law changes or enough people sue and manage to win that everybody is too afraid to be in the game.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

[QUOTE=gaydemon;126109]I can’t actually believe what you’re saying that you should just submit DMCA to them… ignoring the fact that they are:

a) allowing stolen content to be uploaded and do not stop it from happening
b) making money by selling a premium membership so surfers can download stolen videos
c) giving out stolen videos to affiliates to use as promotional content
d) creating a lot of work and cost for copyright owners finding their content and submitting DMCA notices.

Not only that but this is a site that’s clearly no longer protected by DMCA Safe Harbor. You can only claim safe harbour if you’re unaware of the fact you have stolen content and are not making money of it.

And why shouldn’t other affiliates or site owners do the same as ManHub? If simply submitting DMCA notices is the solution then I see no reason not to steal other peoples content and charge members for downloading it. Should you get a DMCA notice you just remove that content. Excellent business strategy, take whatever you want and use it until someone complains… no costs involved just lots of content for free!

Clearly I’m behind the times and no longer understand how business works. I need to start stealing to make money![/QUOTE]

Please do not think that I support any of this illegal tube crap. If I did, I would have started my own illegal tube years ago and I wouldn’t be clocking hours for a paycheck. The only thing I ever had was a tube full of sponsor vids and I was thrilled if I had the occasional 5 minute clip.

The problem with Manhub is that they do respond to DMCA’s in a timely manner and there is no proof that they are uploading videos themselves. If they start ignoring DMCA’s or there is a smoking gun like somebody having a team of submitter in India, there really isn’t too much that can be done.

I believe the Google explanation of financial benefit from infringing content is a simplified version or Corbin Fisher would have taken down every tube years ago. As I understand it (and I think attorneys do, too… but I could be wrong) is that you cannot make money directly from the content. Meaning you cannot offer it as a download clip you have to pay for. Flying ads around it is something entirely different or YouTube would have been gone years ago. I think that is why most of these tubes imply that you’re getting an upgrade to the tube itself, but you’re essentially buying a membership to a pay site.

There are ways that every single person that posts on Gay Demon can make money off sites like Manhub. Even affiliates (not counting the way this whole issue came up).

To sum things up, I hate illegal tubes. Illegal tubes are not going anywhere in the foreseeable future so that only leaves the option to cover our own asses. We pay a hefty amount to Porn Guardian each month to protect us. Since Dominic is a paysite sponsor himself, he is the first to tell you that he wishes he never had to come up with Porn Guardian and we do, too.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

Well now you can’t do that because I’ll know what you’re doing and take everything from you.

The first rule of tube club is do not discuss tube club. lol

Now do it the way some tubes do and all I’ll be able to do is cuss you out in my head when I’m reviewing DMCA stats. Of course while I’m doing that I’ll be looking for that one or two requests you forgot to respond to so I can make it go BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE on your tube site.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

[QUOTE=rawTOP;126127]
Jesse also confirmed the fact that pirates can make significant sales in his post above. Given the choice between working with Manhub or working with me, most sponsors will chose Manhub. I think the reason is pretty simple. People don’t know how profitable porn will be in 5 or 10 years. They don’t even know if their business will be viable in 5 or 10 years, so they’re making all the money they can now - even if the way they make it is destroying the industry and in turn their business.[/QUOTE]

Significant would be an over statement. They send sales. I still spend A LOT more of my day doing things for affiliates than I do tubes and I hope it stays that way in the foreseeable future. I am the one that does the newsletters and sends them out and adds all of the content to NATS for affiliates to use. We simply cannot ignore tubes though and hope that they go away… or we may eventually go away.

GayTube.com sends a lot of good sales but they are mostly promo and amateur unless there has been a change I haven’t realized.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

We simply cannot ignore tubes though and hope that they go away… or we may eventually go away.

Jesse, I think you are diluting this thread as no one has said they have a problem with ‘all tubes.’

Most sponsors and affiliates don’t have problems with tube sites like GayTube, RocketTube, Queerpixels etc. We even have our own tube site at zvidz.com. I don’t think tube sites are the problem, they actually generate sales for sponsors from promo clips and we all have to work with them because they aren’t going anywhere. If the sponsor is given proper credit for a clip and the tube site is not misleading customers, we are all too happy to support them.

The problem is only when a tube site uses sponsor content illegally and ‘dirty tricks’ to mislead consumers and kill all of our chances for sales. Just as in Lloyd’s analogy about Walmart, there are plenty of tube sites out there, and we as sponsors and affiliates can choose which ones to support and not support based on their business practices (or create our own tube sites). We also get a LOT of sales from Gaytube for example and are only too happy to supply them with promo clips. It shows that a legitimate tube site can make a lot of money using sponsor clips and they don’t need to resort to shady business practices. However, there are little things we can all do to stop supporting tubes that repeatedly pirate content and full videos, sell ‘free download’ or ‘premium’ memberships for them (and rip off the customer when they don’t find the video in the membership), and pay sponsors nothing for it. I think this thread has at least been useful to educate Webmasters on what things we can do.

I’m really thankful there are so many great people and companies in this industry, and I know that many of us on this board work together and have great relationships where we all make money from each other even if we are competition (such as Stunner and zbuckz!). I guess at the end of the day, there will always be some people or companies that are short sighted and who will fuck all morals and lie and cheat any way they can as long as they can make a few extra bucks. This is where we have to rely on Karma, and in my experience I’ve found that Karma works against these people every time…

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

[QUOTE=andreiDL;126138]One suggestion to Dominic:

Use a more transparent system on PornGuardian.com.

Have a page called “Pirate Stats” where you list website names, how many DMCA’s you’ve sent, how many illegal files they posted and if legal action was taken against them.

Once that starts to fill up, I believe it will at least discourage new illegal tubes and file sharing sites to appear as they see that something IS being done. We can also contribute manually to that list.

Let’s just make it public - who is having illegal / suspicious activity and what measures we’ve taken against them.[/QUOTE]

I love this idea, name and shame, and show people that something is actually being done about this. There should also be regular press releases to the business blogs out there when something good happens.

Perfect example - EnglishLads has legally shut down a pirate forum, but we are the only ones who know about it. Why not send an article about that to all the industry sites out there? It’s not only sending a message to those in the business of stealing, but it promotes your brand as a responsible and active site to promote, and it gets your brand out there too for surfers. It’s a win-win-win.

Success like that should be advertised, otherwise no one really knows about it beyond a forum like this.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

[QUOTE=andreiDL;126138]One suggestion to Dominic:

Use a more transparent system on PornGuardian.com.

Have a page called “Pirate Stats” where you list website names, how many DMCA’s you’ve sent, how many illegal files they posted and if legal action was taken against them.

Once that starts to fill up, I believe it will at least discourage new illegal tubes and file sharing sites to appear as they see that something IS being done. We can also contribute manually to that list.

Let’s just make it public - who is having illegal / suspicious activity and what measures we’ve taken against them.[/QUOTE]

I like this idea a lot. We have had over 4 million files removed in the short time we’ve been around. We supply exactly the information you are talking about to our clients: it’s part of their client dashboard. I think it’s very interesting to make some version of this public. I need to ask the lawyers if there is any liability, and talk to Peter about it. But we are ALL about transparency, though we haven’t really thought about this beyond our clients and into the public (beyond our press releases).

We take down small blogs daily and we also take down huge blogs. We were the evidence behind getting Oron.com shut down, after all – and they were the largest filehost at the time. And we don’t do a great job of making everyone know just how vital Porn Guardian has been in all of these lawsuits everyone is reading about (we are a central role in many/most of them).

I’ll talk to Peter and see if we can put out some kind of public-facing stats.

Thanks for the awesome suggestion!!
dominic

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

Might ManHub be getting closer to the top of the list of sites to be monitoring Dominic? :whistle: