ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

I’m sorry you feel that way, Michael. And I appreciate your previous support. I am hoping that you are wrong and that some of these sites really can change.
And it will suck if they really are just always going to be bad guys.

To answer your other question, we are helping one of our clients seek damages from manhub as I write this. And if you want to seek damages I’ll help you. Manhub is not a client of ours. How did I betray you? By letting you know that a large number of their content is actually licensed? Is that my fault or my doing? People kept asking me why they don’t show up more in our google reports. So I told you why: most of the content from our clients is legit.

How that has led to all this bullshit about my reputation, feeling betrayed, etc, is beyond me. I have had the back of this industry 100% from the beginning. Because of Porn Guardian, I now get death threats from the Russian mafia (who know my personal details), all my sites are subject to constant ddos attacks, and every pissed off hacker is constantly trying to take control of our platforms. So if anyone should feel betrayed by this whole thing, it should be me. I’m the one (and Peter) putting our necks on the line for this industry and trying to find ways to stop piracy that go beyond the feeble DMCA laws in our country.

I’m sorry Manhub licenses some if their content. I don’t represent them nor do I speak for them. 100% of our clients are content owners. But some of them run tubes, ad networks and other properties. I will continue doing my best on behalf of the industry to bring these other properties in line the best way I can.

And I don’t see that you or anyone else should ever feel betrayed about that.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

My mistake for thinking Manhub was a client of Porn Guardian’s. In an earlier post you said, “When BangBros came on board earlier in the year they wanted to know how bad the problem on ManHub really was.”

BangBros owns Manhub do they not? So isn’t it just a matter of semantics?

And you help other companies gather evidence against Manhub, which is a subsidary, or whatever you want to call it, of BangBros? And you don’t see that as a conflict of interest?

Good grief.

Manhub has never done anything to me directly, and what was I previously thought were pirated videos weren’t any such thing, or may be some were and some weren’t because of these backroom licensing deals. So who the fuck knows. Yes, the waters are very muddy now.

But the mere presence of widespread piracy on a great many tube and torrent sites is driving paying customers away from affiliates and sponsors, I don’t have to tell you that. Piracy hurts us all. Piracy has taken a great deal of money out of my bank account, but now I’m just supposed to say, “Oh look, the pirates have reformed, isn’t that great.”

If you can’t understand why me, and many like me, feel betrayed, I sure can’t explain it to you.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

As of yet, aside from that initial audit (which helped them catch and remove several repeat offenders), manhub is not a client, no. Maybe that’s where all the confusion comes from. Other subsidiaries can certainly be clients and not them. The same way men.com is a client but not manwin’s other properties.

Having said that, I think the industry would welcome it if they put in place a program whereby a watchdog company (us or someone else) made sure 0 piracy was on their site. Who knows if that’s something they would do but I think it would be a step in the right direction. It won’t address the wrongs of the past, but might help make them a friendlier player for the future in the way xtube and gaytube are now.

Wouldn’t that be a good thing if it happened to this and all tube sites?

And btw, the word ‘damages’ has legal meanings I didn’t fully appreciate. I meant we are working with a current client to repair their relationship with manhub and helping them do that, to repair the damage in the relationship (which is different than ‘damages’) . I should not have used the word ‘damages’ as it means much more than I intended that to mean.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

So, ManHunt are profitting from ManHub too… Several other sponsors have their banners there. Will be interesting (or not) to see what happens!..

Screen Shot 2013-04-23 at 00.12.00.jpg

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

PS.

http://www.gaydemon.biz/showthread.php?24152-ManHub-com-Making-money-on-your-stolen-content/page27

Pirate ‘traffic’ converts. Its a dodgy cross-sale. Ofcourse they convert!?

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

Теперь я понимаю…Russian for “Now I understand…”

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

Now you have to read through some very important threads to get to the “meaning”. I am sure there are those of you who already know.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

With all due respect Michael (dzinerbear,) there is some common ownership of ManHub and BangBros but nether is a subsidiary of the other. You know me, Michael. At least I hope you do… I’m an honest, hard-working guy trying every day to do what’s right for the industry as best I can.

Let’s be clear. There are several tubes out there running user-uploads that are owned in whole or in part by companies that also produce original content. As Dominic said earlier, there are even affiliate networks that promote content owners and fight piracy, and at the same time, they sell advertising which they place on pirate tubes because eyeballs mean business and the numbers are very compelling. And yes, there are legitimate membership sites that hook clients for a month’s membership by offering a $2.00 one day trial, then they bang the card for $29.95. There are also folks that acquired content under somewhat dubious licensing terms and they display it behind their membership firewall as their own. Some content owners don’t even know anymore who they’ve licensed content to. And some content owners allow affiliates to post 15-minute clips with the money shot, on tubes that support piracy, feeling it’s better to have their watermark out there if it can edge out their competitor’s watermark. It’s really difficult to tell sometimes if a particular company is profiting from another company’s misfortune… even feeding another company’s misfortune to create profit for themselves.

Sometimes Porn Guardian is accused of not doing ENOUGH to fight piracy - on the theory that if piracy were to suddenly stop, we would be out of business. It’s a ridiculous notion I think. And now we’re being accused of consorting with the enemy because we performed an audit of ManHub (at their request) to demonstrate the true extent of their involvement with pirated content. This is the second time a tube site has come to us asking for help - not to become better pirates, but to become better citizens of the internet. In both cases we felt it served our clients’ interests to try and inspire better compliance rather than to tell these people to fuck off. As a company, we try to make every decision by checking possible outcomes against what we see as our clients’ interests and the interests of the industry. When we’re in doubt, we consult one or more industry attorneys and we check in with Diane at the Free Speech Coalition… AND we talk to one or more of our clients and try to get their input and advice. Sometimes we have to make tough choices where we turn away profitable business because taking it would conflict with the interests of another of our clients. And sometimes we take on business below cost because serving that particular client brings us closer to being able to take down eBay Auction sites full of bootleg content. Some of our clients won’t speak to one another. Some are suing each other. We try not to take sides, and often, it’s not easy. But as a company we are guided by a moral compass that would never allow us to take money to look the other way when we see wrongdoing. We never lie, we never cheat, we call people out when we see them cheating or lying if calling them out helps in the fight against piracy. We try never to make promises we cannot keep. We do what we say we will do and we are completely transparent about it. We represent the interests of content producers who are not and never will be our clients. We do that frequently when it helps us build a case for a content producer who IS a client.

I want to answer the objections to Porn Guardian “consorting” with ManHub in very specific terms here and I will very soon, working with my partner Dominic Ford, who is also one of my closest and most valued friends. But it’s going to take some time to lay out the forward motion we have inspired from ManHub - to begin to move them away from a business model that monetizes theft and toward one that builds alliances with content producers and affiliates. We’re not there yet, but we are moving them slowly forward. And we believe that serves our clients long-term interests better than telling ManHub to fuck off.

For those of you who have lost your trust in Porn Guardian because of some of the things you’ve read here, I’m deeply sorry. Please try not to rush to judgement until you hear our side. Please don’t be blinded by your anger about piracy and please don’t direct that anger at us until you hear more about what we’re doing to help fight piracy in this specific instance. Make up your mind when you have all the facts. Don’t join the witch hunt, and don’t assume that what someone else says about our motivations is correct without giving us a chance to tell you about them ourselves. Do us that small courtesy.

More in a day or two…

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

Michael (dzinerbear,) do you think Porn Guardian should NOT work to force better anti-piracy compliance? It’s frankly the essence of what we do. We believe that’s in the best interests of our clients and the industry as a whole. We’re not in the punishment business - we leave that up to the courts, and we provide evidence on behalf of clients when they or their attorneys ask us to. I think that’s what Dominic means when he says “hold them accountable.”

We’re putting together a clear and detailed outline of the forward motion (toward better compliance) our audit 6 weeks ago has inspired from ManHub. It’s going to take some time. How about before rushing to judgement about Porn Guardian having conspired with pirates, you wait a bit and listen to our side of this story. Does that sound fair?

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

Peter and Dominic, I get the idea, of trying to turn Crooks into Good Citizens.

Most of Western Civilization Penal System has a 'Rehabilitation" module built in, but there are consequences doled out, before one can usually avail themselves of that module. Probation is one often cited, and all that ‘do good liberal thinking’ has its merits. But when the markets continue to shrink, and tubes run by Pirates keep growing, it is frustrating beyond belief.

I think a lot of the anger, comes from that simple statement about the content being licensed, not really stolen that hit the “bring out the shotgun” button. Adding to that, is that there is the perception, that Bangbros is a client, and well the hammer came down on both barrells of the shotgun.

I think that sometimes Sponsors forget that it is the “little guy” who has played a part in their success, and when that little guy feels that he is suddenly not only in competition with Thieves, but with the very people he/she is relying on for their income, well tempers get frayed. Mine certainly are, and I am way smaller of a seller, than say Michael, who in turn is a lot smaller than say Bjorn. Yet all of us, are upset by this turn of events, which should say something that maybe Sponsors need to take heed of.

Sponsors get a lot of their information from affiliates, about pirate sites, and then we find that instead of going after them, they wind up getting in bed with them, in licensing content to them, and well, don’t you see that knife handle sticking out of our backs?

I have never met Dominic, or you Peter, but I have supported Porn Guardian from its inception, as has many others who are now feeling, a bit, well, shell shocked. And just because I haven’t met any of you, or you me, doesn’t mean I can’t have an opinion either, as some have suggested. I have never met our Prime Minister, but I know he is not someone I want to lead us, just as many of you who decried George W. Bush never met him either. Don’t need to meet the person, to have an opinion of him.

That said, I am not saying Porn Guardian, or Dominic, or you Peter are untrustworthy, I am saying, that I feel disappointed, confused, and well, stunned. So the more you inform us the more we can come to understand what is actually going on. Scuba Steve who represents Haze Cash says nothing, which speaks volumes, many sponsors & their reps, say nothing, so what is left but conjecture and assumptions?

Anyhow, just my opinion.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

How to succeed in business without even trying:

  1. Make an illegal tube.
  2. Upload illegal videos under fake usernames
  3. This will bring in tons of traffic.
  4. If asked delete illegal files
  5. Reupload the same file under different username
  6. Make money
  7. Make traffic
  8. Is it 18 months already? Time to go clean

What have I learned:

There is no fine.
Nobody will sue you.
The whole Gay Adult Industry (does that even exist in such term) will embrace you.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

[QUOTE=Gaystoryman;133016]Peter and Dominic, I get the idea, of trying to turn Crooks into Good Citizens.

Most of Western Civilization Penal System has a 'Rehabilitation" module built in, but there are consequences doled out, before one can usually avail themselves of that module. Probation is one often cited, and all that ‘do good liberal thinking’ has its merits. But when the markets continue to shrink, and tubes run by Pirates keep growing, it is frustrating beyond belief.

I think a lot of the anger, comes from that simple statement about the content being licensed, not really stolen that hit the “bring out the shotgun” button. Adding to that, is that there is the perception, that Bangbros is a client, and well the hammer came down on both barrells of the shotgun.

I think that sometimes Sponsors forget that it is the “little guy” who has played a part in their success, and when that little guy feels that he is suddenly not only in competition with Thieves, but with the very people he/she is relying on for their income, well tempers get frayed. Mine certainly are, and I am way smaller of a seller, than say Michael, who in turn is a lot smaller than say Bjorn. Yet all of us, are upset by this turn of events, which should say something that maybe Sponsors need to take heed of.

Sponsors get a lot of their information from affiliates, about pirate sites, and then we find that instead of going after them, they wind up getting in bed with them, in licensing content to them, and well, don’t you see that knife handle sticking out of our backs?

[/QUOTE]

For what it’s worth I agree with you. Sponsors should not be licensing content to pirate (or even “used to be pirate” sites). I think it would be AWESOME if instead they licensed content to affiliates who bring them a lot of sales. I completely understand your frustration. But please understand this has nothing to do with Porn Guardian. If you are angry at the sponsors, vilify them, ask them questions, stop promoting them, track them down at the Phoenix Forum, etc… That’s certainly what I would do. And, in fact, that is what we have done when we feel like one of our clients is advertising on an illegal tube site, or if we question why they would license content to a tube site that built it’s business on the backs of those of us trying to do things in a legit way.

I have also said this publicly at no fewer than 3 conferences when I was sitting on Legal, Piracy or Ethics panels: XBIZ, Internext, and the Phoenix Forum.

So while I understand (and agree with) your frustration, I am unclear why it is directed at us when your issue is with the sponsors and where/how they choose to license their content.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

  1. Make an illegal tube.
  2. Upload illegal videos under fake usernames
  3. This will bring in tons of traffic.
  4. If asked delete illegal files
  5. Reupload the same file under different username
  6. Make money
  7. Make traffic
  8. Is it 18 months already? Time to go clean

I can totally understand why Bjorn and others have a bad taste in their mouth over this turn of events, but at the same time I’ll be interested to see if PG can actually succeed in bringing about what could be a massive change to Manhub, which like it or not would benefit the community. Manhub would have to do more for our network of Producers we work with whose content they have pilfered and profited off of then just lip service for us to consider working with them. I can see that the work Dominic and Peter are doing could be beneficial if Manhub are truly committed to ‘changing their ways.’ They would owe it to the producers to give them compensation for the illegal content posted and damages for infringements (this could be resolved privately between the sponsors/producers whose work has been infringed on). They owe it to the community to post and communicate with us (silence has been speaking volumes here) and lay out their exact plans for change in a transparent way (note: action, not only words). They would also need a full time person inspecting every video before it goes live to ensure there is absolutely ZERO tolerance for copyright violations. It’s not that hard to do … GayTube and Rockettube seem to do a pretty good job of it, and they certainly aren’t lacking for traffic.

“We do not merely destroy our enemies; we change them.”

  • George Orwell

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

I absolutely understand that having Manhub “changing their ways” is of great benefit to producers.

However what many of you are clearly missing is that you’re being taken for a ride by ManHub / BangBros. Some of us can clearly see that they have intentionally build up their site using stolen content (could they even have paid people to upload that content?). Now when they have reached a certain level they are ready to come clean, they do this by paying (indirectly) a reputable company like Porn Guardian and hiring lawyers previously representing big producers to give them a label of approval. It’s a brilliant business strategy which has clearly worked. They have not had to pay licence fees for any of the content and now they are all cleared… I guess making any future lawsuits impossible or difficult. This is all happening on Manhub / BangBro’s terms.

You’re essentially telling people that it’s ok to build up sites using stolen content and that that they will be forgiven when they are ready to come clean. There is no longer any reason to not steal content, piracy is now the smart and easy way to success. I don’t think I’m the only one who regrets not doing the same as Manhub, I would have been rich by now.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

You’re essentially telling people that it’s ok to build up sites using stolen content and that that they will be forgiven when they are ready to come clean. There is no longer any reason to not steal content, piracy is now the smart and easy way to success. I don’t think I’m the only one who regrets not doing the same as Manhub, I would have been rich by now.

Yes I agree with you here. It’s sort of a catch-22. The thing is, what they could do is make this tube fully legitimate and try to make everyone happy, and then just secretly start up another pirate tube to gain traffic and then when they get huge we go through this whole process all over again. :bang:

I guess we each individually have to figure out where to draw the line… at the moment the message does unfortunately seem to be ‘piracy pays.’ It’s a sad state of affairs and totally unfair, but with many sponsors and even affiliates working with the pirate sites now I don’t see it changing in the near future. :frowning:

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

I don’t understand this “moving them slowly forward” bit. It’s pretty clear to me what you need to do: If Manhub is uploading full-length content, you tell them to stop – today, right now, right this second, there is no phasing in process, just stop. If they are creating fake log-ins to cover their tracks, you tell them to stop, again, today.

If Bang Bros can’t bring their tube site under control, then perhaps as a gesture of good will to the large gay porn community, you need to drop them as a client.

It’s not complicated stuff. If I put up a full-length on Joe Spunk, I’d probably get an email from the site owner or affiliate rep or their lawyer asking me to remove it. I could say, “OMG! I’m so sorry, I don’t know how that happened, I meant to put up a teaser clip, but I must have clicked the wrong file on my computer.” I remove the video and a week later I do another one. I might get away with this or two three times, then I’m pretty sure that my affiliate account would be closed and very likely I’d be getting legal papers in the mail. There would be no “moving me forward slowly.” Once: okay maybe it’s a mistake; twice: um, something’s going on here; three times: this guy is fucking with us.

Peter, no one has explained to us what “being held accountable” means. Please, explain it in plain English.

Seems to me that it means nothing. A pirated video sits on a torrent, a tube, or wherever until someone notices it, then a DMCA is sent and the video is removed. There are no consequences, no one is held accountable, the whole world just shrugs their shoulders and says, “Sorry, we didn’t know.”

Peter, you ask us not to be blinded by our anger about piracy. It’s pretty hard not to be angry when a great many of us our hurting financially. We have watched our traffic and sales disappear, we have watched tubes grow and grow, we have watched some of them play all kinds of games and get away with it. The only people that are being “held accountable” are sponsors and affiliates who watch their revenues decline.

Peter, what if Porn Guardian is being used to learn how the system works, so companies can figure out how to game the system?

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

[QUOTE=dannyz;133022]I can totally understand why Bjorn and others have a bad taste in their mouth over this turn of events, but at the same time I’ll be interested to see if PG can actually succeed in bringing about what could be a massive change to Manhub, which like it or not would benefit the community. Manhub would have to do more for our network of Producers we work with whose content they have pilfered and profited off of then just lip service for us to consider working with them. I can see that the work Dominic and Peter are doing could be beneficial if Manhub are truly committed to ‘changing their ways.’ They would owe it to the producers to give them compensation for the illegal content posted and damages for infringements (this could be resolved privately between the sponsors/producers whose work has been infringed on). They owe it to the community to post and communicate with us (silence has been speaking volumes here) and lay out their exact plans for change in a transparent way (note: action, not only words). They would also need a full time person inspecting every video before it goes live to ensure there is absolutely ZERO tolerance for copyright violations. It’s not that hard to do … GayTube and Rockettube seem to do a pretty good job of it, and they certainly aren’t lacking for traffic.

“We do not merely destroy our enemies; we change them.”

  • George Orwell[/QUOTE]

Orwell wrote in The Road to Wigan Pier: “I worked out an anarchistic theory that all government is evil, that the punishment always does more harm than the crime and the people can be trusted to behave decently if you will only let them alone.” He continued however and argued that "it is always necessary to protect peaceful people from violence. In any state of society where crime can be profitable you have got to have a harsh criminal law and administer it ruthlessly."

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

Hi guys,

I’ve been on & off for the past few days so just gave the latest posts in this thread a good read.

I also don’t like the whole BangBros - PG link, however Dominic explained it in an email he sent us.

Unfortunately there is one thing I find fishy here. Dominic is saying producers are licensing content to Manhub. That is true and we all knew that. However that is Manhub Premium.

There the content is shown as DVDs, all producers have their labels, they are clearly labeled as studios production.

But our problem is with Manhub.com - the free area. I doubt anyone is licensing content to their free area. I see LOADS of full length scenes on Manhub.com. We have a full length scene there since February 1, 2012. I have personally reported it 3 times, Steve reported it too, it was never taken down.

There are thousands of full length scenes and even full length DVDs on Manhub.com from various studios and I really really doubt anyone licenses that content for the FREE AREA of Manhub.

I know what Dominic is saying about Manhub Premium, I don’t even care about that. Manhub Premium is their “legit” small portion of Manhub. My and others problem is with Manhub.com directly. There is absolutely no way studios would license their content on the free area. What would they gain out of that?

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

[QUOTE=andreiDL;133086]
Unfortunately there is one thing I find fishy here. Dominic is saying producers are licensing content to Manhub. That is true and we all knew that. However that is Manhub Premium.

There the content is shown as DVDs, all producers have their labels, they are clearly labeled as studios production.

But our problem is with Manhub.com - the free area. I doubt anyone is licensing content to their free area. I see LOADS of full length scenes on Manhub.com. We have a full length scene there since February 1, 2012. I have personally reported it 3 times, Steve reported it too, it was never taken down.

There are thousands of full length scenes and even full length DVDs on Manhub.com from various studios and I really really doubt anyone licenses that content for the FREE AREA of Manhub.

I know what Dominic is saying about Manhub Premium, I don’t even care about that. Manhub Premium is their “legit” small portion of Manhub. My and others problem is with Manhub.com directly. There is absolutely no way studios would license their content on the free area. What would they gain out of that?[/QUOTE]

I was told by a producer that has licensed content to Manhub in the past that their agreement included content on the free area for promotional reasons.

Don’t shoot the messenger.

Re: ManHub.com - Making money on your stolen content?

In the world of Finance and business this would be called TOO BIG TO FAIL…

Manhub is just so big and they have so much traffic that they are too big to fail… that’s why everyone is letting them slip by and that’s why they are taking this easy way out… as Michael pointed out, If I put a full length video on my Pornosleuth I would get lawyer threats within a day, and probably I could get away with that 2-3 times, then I would be excommunicated and sued my ass off…

Porn Guardian is an LLC it is not an organization and that is why they are ALWAYS in the conflict of interest… we all know that. Sure, If you ask me the so called illegal porn hunter can only be an organization of gay adult sites as wide as possible. Only this way the porn guardian would fight illegal sites regardless if the uploaded video is on their payroll or not… and that is the main goal. To fight piracy and punish those who are not abiding the rules, if you don’t punish them then what we can learn from it is that it’s ok to go illegal as there are NO consequences besides some threats and pulling down the videos part… so you can’t really blame Porn Guardian, they are a company trying to make cash and they will do what cash asks them. They are not non-profit organization and they are not here to punish illegal sites. Basically they are just defending their business model which is to get as much paysites on a payroll and removing the illegal links from certain sites.

Face it, without illegal upload sites and illegal tubes Porn Guardian would not be making money. So the question is, what would Porn Guardian gain if piracy was non existent tomorrow ?

This industry is all about cash, affiliates, site owners, tube hunters… ethics have been questions many times, on all of us. So here’s to CA$$$$$H