Hello,
what do you think about upselling in the member area of a paysite? I mean the banners linked to other sites where just the paysite owner will get credit for the sales. I’m pretty debated about that. In my opinion as long as the upselling is not “wild” (on every page, frame and spot) it could be good. I’ve heard that upselling could kill rebills. In my opinion it’s not true as long as the site has good and good quality content.
What’s your opinion?
Thank you.
Re: Upselling in the member area
[QUOTE=InsaneSimon;17252] I’ve heard that upselling could kill rebills. In my opinion it’s not true as long as the site has good and good quality content.
[/QUOTE]
Why upsell to a membership site when there are so many other ways to upsell a member?
I know of at least three paysites when they dropped the upsells to other paysites, their rebills went up as well.
One of the MAIN reasons someone might join another site, is they don’t quite like the one they are in. So, if you have a crappy site and know it wont rebill, then offer another paysite. Otherwise, why not focus on building the best paysite you can and upsell other items?
Re: Upselling in the member area
a couple thoughts here.
for sites that don’t retain well due to size, having the right upsells can pay for the site to grow faster.
there are non-competitive products one can sell
sticking a banner or banners in a member area isn’t as effective as doing something unique and offering it as content. dvd reviews linked to the dvds is an example. or galleries with full sized pics from “friends” sites with links to the sites - not big heavy ones, but very accurate smaller ones.
i believe that selling memberships to paysites can lower retention, but none of my clients keep enough track for me to have hard evidence. still, how many guys have active memberships to multiple sites? i don’t know for sure, although ccbill probably has that info.
Re: Upselling in the member area
The best analogy I can give is Walmart. If you walk into a Walmart store, will you see flyers for Target? No. Walmart wants to sell only products in the Walmart store.
Take this analogy to your member’s area. Chances are, the surfer that will buy a membership to your site and another site, will also buy VOD, live shows, and Dating as well. Why send him to another site and have him drop $2,000 there?
When I ran AVS sites, I use to update the vast majority once a week. Some AVS sites had 10,000 pics. Why? I wanted that surfer with a CC back again and again, not to burn my bandwith, but to buy VOD and live shows.
I would never send a CC member to another site where he can go and drop 1,000s of dollars on upsells.
Re: Upselling in the member area
I think that it’s all about content. If you offer GOOD CONTET people retain. And they retain cause they cannot find your same content anywhere else even if they buy other memberships.
[QUOTE=abostonboy;17254]
One of the MAIN reasons someone might join another site, is they don’t quite like the one they are in. So, if you have a crappy site and know it wont rebill, then offer another paysite. Otherwise, why not focus on building the best paysite you can and upsell other items?[/QUOTE]
I suppose that basschick replied very well… to raise more money to boost the growth of the paysite.
Re: Upselling in the member area
To incorporate this methodology with your other statements I would say that plenty of people shop at Walmart, Target, Kmart, etc for the same kinds of items. Sometimes one store might have the same thing cheaper, other times they might have a new line of an old item you purchased before. (new shoot of a model you liked on another site) etc. etc. the analogies could go on forever.
It’s not a matter of a customer not liking a site and choosing a site it refers to join. It’s a matter of a customer liking a site and joining a site like the one it’s a member of already. ( or not like, depending on your marketing )
Nobody stays at only one porn site, ever. Since they like what I have and are willing to pay for it I’m more then happy to refer them to something else I think they might like as well and it’s been a very profitable business model.
Re: Upselling in the member area
btw, some sites that offer their own DVDs for sale in the member area seem to do fine for retention. it makes sense to me that guys who really like the content might like a more permanent and higher quality version of some of the videos.
Re: Upselling in the member area
I’m not so bothered by upselling in members areas. So many people do it in one way or another … Fleshlights, Flirt4Free, VODs, etc. I look at it as a way for the site owner to make some extra money. Let’s face it, after they pay the webmaster and the processing fees, there’s not a lot left over. This is a way for them to supplement their income and continue improving their site.
I could be wrong, but I think a site with really good content is going to be so quick to upsell to other sites.
I’m also not bothered by it so much because the industry is changing. Rebilling is declining or dying a slow death. Many more surfers are cancelling their rebilling right away and moving on to another site. After you’ve been a member of Corbin Fisher, for example, and you’ve burned through their videos, why would you stick around month after month to see another 8-12 videos every month when you could move on to Sean Cody and get another 450 videos? You could move on and come back to Corbin Fisher is a few months and get another 100 videos. Sure, there are still a lot of rebillers out there, but it’s not like it used to be. So I don’t necessarily believe that I’m losing out on these upsells, I don’t expect most surfers are going to rebill anyway.
Finally, just food for thought, but if we’re going to start demanding a piece of the upselling pie from sponsors, don’t they have the right to demand it from us? Let’s say you use their content for a freesite and you also link your freesite to something other than the sponsor, perhaps you have links to your own freesite hub that sells all kinds of other things, or maybe a VOD theatre, shouldn’t the sponsor be entitled to a cut?
And what about your AVS sites, shouldn’t the AVS be entitled to a cut of your upsells? Some of your AVS sales are coming from the AVS itself, we don’t all get our own traffic to our AVS sites. An AVS surfer that upsells in your member’s area might not be upselling to the AVS’s premium members area, so the AVS loses.
As long as the upsells are not happening on the outside of the member’s area, I’m not terribly worried about.
I think we all lose more revenue through glitches where the referral code gets drops when a server hiccups, or when a surfer looks at our freesite and then types in the sponsor’s Web address into their browser, or when a surfer that we send cancels and then rejoins the site a month later by going to the site directly. Those are all areas where I think we lose more money.
Michael
Re: Upselling in the member area
[QUOTE=InsaneSimon;17258]
I suppose that basschick replied very well… to raise more money to boost the growth of the paysite.[/QUOTE]
If I read what Basschick said, she was referring to non competetive upsells.
Re: Upselling in the member area
[QUOTE=Squirt;17292]To incorporate this methodology with your other statements I would say that plenty of people shop at Walmart, Target, Kmart, etc for the same kinds of items. Sometimes one store might have the same thing cheaper, other times they might have a new line of an old item you purchased before. (new shoot of a model you liked on another site) etc. etc. the analogies could go on forever.
[/QUOTE]
That is true and I agree with you. But, should Walmart say, “Here is a flyer for Target, you can get it cheaper over there?”
I like upsells in a member’s area. Upsells can make the webmaster some nice cash. But, I personally have found the best upsells to be non competitive.
I maybe wrong, but when I join a paysite and see an upsell for another paysite, then I get the feeling that the paysite doesn’t have much confidence in their own site if they are sending me to another paysite. Maybe, it’s me. But, I wouldn’t upsell another paysite in my member’s area. I have seen some that do it in a non obtrusive way, while others have banners to another paysite right on the main member’s page. In fact, we buy spots from some sites that do that and get members that rebill quite a few months.
Re: Upselling in the member area
But if you’re a ravenous surfer who just wants tons of gay porn and you don’t care where you get it, wouldn’t you be happy that Blake Mason let you know about another great site?
See I’m of a different school of thought. When I started running Universal Bear and I ran it the way I wanted to, I upsold to other hairy man paysites on the outside. I recognized that not every surfer would want an AVS membership, and I was okay with that. I’d rather sell him a Hairy Boyz membership than nothing. It never affected my AVS sales. But when a policy change forced me to take those upsell banners now I lost a lot of money and I didn’t make it back in AVS sales.
Now I know there’s a difference between paysites and AVS sites, and inside and outside upsells, but my point is that you might think you’re keeping your surfers by not offering upsells in the member’s area, but you’re actually losing a bunch of people who were never going to stay anyway. I’d rather make money off those people. If your content is as good as you think, the surfers will come back.
Maybe a good compromise would be to funnel all of your one-time membership traffic into a member’s area with upsells and see what the results are. You may pick up some extra cash.
Michael
Re: Upselling in the member area
Michael,
Adam and I do differ on this. He wont upsell to ANYTHING in the member’s area. I would upsell to non competing products.
However, when you spend over $100,000 to build a brand, it’s damn hard to put up a banner for another paysite. It’s not so much the money you can make or lose, it’s really about the brand.
If I was running a paysite. I would be upselling to non competetive products. But, if I want to sell my CC member live shows and VOD why would I send him to another paysite and have him join the live shows and VOD there?
Also, even though we all know retention is going down and one month memberships are becoming popular, would it be in the paysite’s best interest to send a member that may have an active membership to my site to another site? Affiliates don’t get credit for upsells, but why possibly take away the recurring member that they brought in?
At the end of the day it’s really about the brand. You drop $10,000+ a month on advertising your site, then the first thing a surfer sees is an upsell to another membership site. Something seems wrong about that picture to me.
If I were running a PPS program and wasn’t spending a ton branding, I may feel different and upsell to other paysites, as it would have not have an affect on affiliate revenue so much as me sending their customer, that may potentially rebill, to another site.
i think we can all agree that having links to other paysites is not going to help retention. Maybe make the program more money, but not help rebills. Affiliates like rebills and they are getting harder and harder to get. So, any little thing i can do to help an affiliate i will.
Re: Upselling in the member area
I suppose, but I think brands are over-rated. Sure, it’s important to get your name out there and be recognized with a niche. But at the end of the day I’m not going to stay with your site just because of your brand. Some surfers might, but not me, or a lot of other surfers.
I’m just as happy buying videos from Hot House, Raging Stallion, Titan Men, Treasure Island Media, Bear Films, etc. … they’re all good brands, but it really boils down to whether the guy on the movie cover grabs my attention and whether I think there are enough hot men on the DVD to keep my happy. If a Titan Men’s movie doesn’t grab me, I’m not opposed to picking up a Hot House video. But what is important is that when I’m looking for videos, I know where to check, so in that respect branding is important.
And one thing I’ve learned through working on the Net. Surfers are fickkle. They like a constant stream of new. When the next Blake Mason hits the Web they won’t give it a second thought, they’ll jump over to the site in a matter of seconds, and so much for all those thousands you spent on branding. They may come back, but they may not.
People may have been brand loyal 10 or 20 years ago, but I don’t think so much anymore. Maybe with some high-ticket items like cars and computers (my last five computers have been HPs) but with porn sites, I think it’s mostly about the cock: how big is it and do I want to think about myself sucking it.
Anyway, interesting discussion.
Michael
Re: Upselling in the member area
Michael,
I agree with many of your points.
However, there is still the affiliate issue and revshare. I have seen rotating banners to competing paysites on some paysite tours. I just wonder what is inside the site as well. It’s a tough call to get an affiliate to market your site under revshare, then have upsells to other paysites in your members area. Maybe I am a bit old fashion when it comes to that. But, as rebills go down, the last thing I would want is to be sending potential affiliate rebills to a competing site. There are just so many ways you can upsell and make money without potentially killing an affiliate’s rebill.
At the end of the day it really boils down to GPM (gross per member) for many paysite owners. That’s a model that is ever changing.
Interesting discussion. Different views.
Re: Upselling in the member area
Well, I believe there’s another dimension to this.
We all have good and less good months… if you send off your members to other sites then I would guess rebills will go down. So what happens in those “less good months”? Your revenue goes down, as does your affiliates.
Without exception, the number of rebills has increased month on month for us ever since the site was launched. That’s a MAJOR source of revenue that I would be nuts to risk. And my members are actually very loyal… branding in the right way gives people a reason to trust the site and it’s content.
Re: Upselling in the member area
Nobody ever stays with just one porn site.
Either you can show them more options you think they’ll like, and make some good money, or you can leave it to someone else to make that money.
Take my niche site sleepingmen.com. Members of that site don’t ONLY like sleeping men, it’s a niche. Do I just sit blindly by and assume they will only subscribe to my site alone? No. I refer them to my other sites and sites I think they’ll like.
For many foreigners British men is a niche as well as uncut men. Think about it. Referring them to other British or uncut sites would be common business sense.
It’s kind of like Johns with hookers. A John might like a particular hooker, but he’s going to try out other hookers. One of his regulars might refer him to her friend that’s new to the business for a little commission. Good business.
Re: Upselling in the member area
Agreed, no-one does stay exclusively with one porn site. But for some reason, my members experiment elsewhere yet retain there recurring subscriptions with me. They tell me as much… and my 42% rebill rate proves it!
So I am happy with the status quo… and all of those lovely rebills 
But what does get me is being pigeon-holed in to a British / Uncut niche… we simply provide great films of guys enjoying themselves… the whole niche thing is very limiting but I guess that’s for another thread!
Re: Upselling in the member area
Hey it’s just as bad as us Americans being pigeon holed in the fit big dick category j/k 
Why not experiment with an internal banner for a site completely different then yours. A niche site that doesn’t threaten your customer base moving exclusively to them, something like sleepingmen, musle or a black guys site.
Re: Upselling in the member area
I don’t know that you would even call it upselling but we do know that we have a growing number of members that stay month after month. We also have a lot of new members that only join for one month at a time then come back later. If they are going to leave (and they are) why not sell them on material we know that they will enjoy. If they belonged to Manifest Men and then cancel, why not send them a cancelation notice with an encouragement to give Playgirl a try, or Hot House or even Bound Gods? I make the same amount of money when I send a member to one of those sites that I make when an affiliate sends a member to mine.
Re: Upselling in the member area
But, would you put a banner to PlayGirl in your member’s area for active customers that rebill to see every day?