PHX Panel: Boutique Sites vs. Large Programs

Webmaster Discussion
,
#1

Hey All!

I’m on a Phoenix Forum Panel next week called “GAY BOUTIQUE CONTENT IN A MEGA-PROGRAM WORLD” and instead of just winging it (like most people do on panels!) I thought I’d do some research so I sound like I know what I’m talking about!

So here’s a couple of questions:

  1. Large programs have resources to run all kinds of ads on the boards, etc. but smaller ‘boutique’ sites devote their energy and time to producing their site. So, whether or not you decide to promote them, how do you learn about new sites, large or small?

  2. What criteria do you use to choose which sites or programs to promote? Do you run with a program, promoting any/all sites they have, trusting that they know what they are doing? Or do you pick and choose among their offerings?

  3. Do you take into account how long running and established a site/program is or just run with the newest figuring the new sites will sell simply because they are new? Or do look to balance between the two?

  4. Lastly, do you prefer promoting large programs who focus their marketing to affiliates vs individual boutique sites that are branded and marketed to consumers? Or does that just not matter?

Thanks for sharing your input!

#2

Re: PHX Panel: Boutique Sites vs. Large Programs

I often find that the bigger a site becomes the less well it converts and that goes for programs, too. When programs become big they can offer higher payouts. That brings on the affiliates in droves. So you get everyone and his brother throwing up tons and tons and mountains of crappy pages and banners.

I’ll give you a for instance. Back in 2003 I started an hairy man AVS hub and after a year or so I started putting up banners on my tours for Hairy Boyz, which used to be a Gunz Blazing site. All I’d do is grab a nice picture (not usually a cock shot) and write something like Hot Hairy Men at the bottom of the banner. That’s it. Those banners made me heaps of money. I remember making enough in one month to buy a laptop and this was back when laptops weren’t cheap.

Flash forward three or four years later, when Gunz Blazing was offering $40 PPS, they had a bunch of sites, and everyone knew about them. I couldn’t sell a membership to save my life and I had to do a lot more than put up a banner.

My point? The bigger you get, the more affiliates promote you, the more saturated the market becomes with your product. Pretty soon all the surfers are saying, “Oh that site” and moving on.

Then as time goes by, the big box porn company has to start doing things like join page pre-checked cross sells (sometimes two and three), automatic email sign-ups, and all the wonderful things they need to do to eek out every sale and pay those high PPS. And I think eventually these companies start cannibalizing themselves. Surfers get burned and start to be leery of joining those sites.

Big box porn companies also tend to be really noisy: We have millions of videos, we have the most twinks anywhere, we have the hugest cocks, get 99 sites in 1 … blah blah blah … and today’s porn surfer is smart and most of them just think “BULLSHIT” because we’ve all be burned by the biggest, the best, the hottest, the creamiest.

But it’s not all good for the boutique sites either. I can’t sell a Randy Blue membership to a man who has been on a deserted island for 10 years. (I must have found him actually because I did just sell one, but that’s been the first in a while.) But then Randy Blue is big box porn, they just happen to be one site, so all the same stuff above applies I think.

I don’t really use a complicated formula to decide who I’m going to promote. If I try a post and it sells, I try another, if it continues, then I start to look at things like cost per click or rebilling ratios. I’d much rather make $14 a sale and do 1:600 with a small site than make $30PPS with Randy Blue at 1:2500.

Some big box porn companies are too fucking difficult to deal with because they think they’re all that and a bag of chips. One company I know has reps coming out the wazoo, can you ever find one? Good luck. Another has a fuck you attitude. A couple of months ago I was told basically to fuck off by one rep. I’m not shitting you, it’s true. When I asked another rep on how I could better sell his program, “Send more traffic,” was his answer.

So who needs it? Andrei from Staxus is one of the best reps out there. This guy will do anything for you and has for me. He doesn’t care that I send him one or two sales a month, he keeps working at it, keeps helping, the guy never stops. He’s even helped me with technical issues with my blogs that had nothing to do with selling his site.

Who would you prefer to work with?

Rob from My Gay Cash is another great guy. He gets back to you quickly, answers your questions, offers advice, etc… He knows that I liked a certain man on one of his sites and I wanted to know when his video from coming, Rob didn’t know, it hadn’t been scheduled. But he put a note in his “to do” program and checked every week and popped me an email saying, “Nothing yet, but I’m watching.” I tend to work harder for people like that. And My Gay Cash is an example of a Big Box Porn company that still works, but they don’t pay PPS so the hoards don’t bother with them.

Dirty Boy Video … I never bothered with you because you were with DHD, who has hands down the absolute worst affiliate interface that was ever created. Any time I ever tried to get a link it was a gigantic pig fuck, so I just never bothered. I know you guys have changed to a different affiliate interface, so I should probably check you out.

Although promoting boutique sites or smallish programs running their own NATS is a pain in the butt because you have to hit 20 different minimums for 20 different sites, conversions are generally better than programs who run on CCBill alone. I’m finding myself more and more saying, “Damn! That site looks good but they’re with CCBill.”

Anyway, I’ve blathered on long enough. If you have questions, fire away and I can address them.

#3

Re: PHX Panel: Boutique Sites vs. Large Programs

  1. Large programs have resources to run all kinds of ads on the boards, etc. but smaller ‘boutique’ sites devote their energy and time to producing their site. So, whether or not you decide to promote them, how do you learn about new sites, large or small?
  • Read about new sites on this forum but also keeping an eye on new forum members who might own sites and check them out.
  • Sponsors contact me through GayDemon.com (often asking to be reviewed).
  • Most of the time it’s existing site owners (or reps) who contact me about their new sites.
  • Sometimes surfers suggest news sites to me, mainly asking for an opinion or requesting it to be reviewed.
  1. What criteria do you use to choose which sites or programs to promote? Do you run with a program, promoting any/all sites they have, trusting that they know what they are doing? Or do you pick and choose among their offerings?

I don’t trust sponsor to know what they are doing, they can often get it wrong when it’s niches they are not familiar with.

Smaller boutique sites are often more likely to get it right and produce much better content, but unfortunately they are also often badly managed by owners who have no sense for business and doesn’t manage the money side of things very well… i.e. they are more likely to go bust.

But my aim is that visitors to GayDemon.com can look up any gay site and find out if it’s worth joining and what they can expect to see as a member. I also know what sells (on my sites) and it’s quite easy for me to tell just by looking at their tours. It means I will sometime add advertising (reviews) for sites that I know won’t sell or perform very well. The main ones I avoid are twink sites, for various reasons.

However long term, the level I promote each site depends on how it performs over time rather than who owns it (providing they pay on time). I re-evaluate sites quarterly and adjust the level of exposure i give them.

It also feels safer to spread my traffic over lots of sponsors and not to have all my eggs in one basket.

  1. Do you take into account how long running and established a site/program is or just run with the newest figuring the new sites will sell simply because they are new? Or do look to balance between the two?

It depends, if a new site have a good amount of high quality content and offer visitors good value for money or something very different and exciting then I might give them a bigger push (but only if they use something like CCBill). However a generic site that tries to rip people off, then no I would not promote them. I rely heavily on bookmarkers and trust. Pushing bad sites just because they are new would hurt me in the long term. Trust and loyalty is everything.

I also feel more confident in trying new sites if they belong to a “trusted” sponsor that I’ve worked with for a long time or use CCbill.

  1. Lastly, do you prefer promoting large programs who focus their marketing to affiliates vs individual boutique sites that are branded and marketed to consumers? Or does that just not matter?

It doesn’t really matter, of course it’s great to have a large programs who provide you with everything you need but individual boutique sites are often more exciting, have better content and more personality. Boutique sites can often be easier to sell despite not having any tools, banners etc. But a sponsor with bad sites won’t sell just because they have lots of tools, banners, content or a friendly rep. As they say “you can’t polish a turd”.

#4

I suggested this panel idea to CCBill and I offered to be on it. I’m about as boutique as it gets.

#5

Re: PHX Panel: Boutique Sites vs. Large Programs

Great feedback!

the big box porn company has to start doing things like join page pre-checked cross sells (sometimes two and three), automatic email sign-ups, and all the wonderful things they need to do to eek out every sale and pay those high PPS

Michael, “Big Box Porn Company” is a great phrase! And I agree, over saturation must cut into the bottom line. I would add that Big Box Porn sites even turn to piracy after exhausting cross sells and the like.

But it’s not all good for the boutique sites either. I can’t sell a Randy Blue membership to a man who has been on a deserted island for 10 years

It’s interesting that you mention Randy Blue as boutique site. Randy Blue, Sean Cody, Corbin Fisher are each more successful than many popular affiliate programs (with all their sites combined).

I guess my next question should be: How do you define a boutique site?

If I try a post and it sells, I try another, if it continues, then I start to look at things like cost per click or rebilling ratios. I’d much rather make $14 a sale and do 1:600 with a small site than make $30PPS with Randy Blue at 1:2500.

That makes sense, I have always encouraged affiliates to look at the ratios and not the check amounts. DirtyBoyVideo had one affiliate who kept complaining that our checks were not as high as another, similar-ish site. Well, when I got him to look at his numbers, he was sending like 1000 times as much traffic to that other site but the sales were 1:1500 and with DirtyBoyVideo it was more like 1:250

(that other site has since gone out of business)

Some big box porn companies are too fucking difficult to deal with

and

you were with DHD, who has hands down the absolute worst affiliate interface that was ever created.

Yeah… the DHD interface was crap for sure. So what you’re saying is customer service - like in any business - really matters regardless of whether it’s a Big Box Porn Company or smaller boutique site?

So, another new question then: Would you just flat out NOT promote a site/program that has content you know you can sell if the process is difficult, either the affiliate software or the attitude of the reps? Would you cut more slack to a boutique site than you would a Big Box Porn one?

promoting boutique sites or smallish programs running their own NATS is a pain in the butt because you have to hit 20 different minimums for 20 different sites, conversions are generally better than programs who run on CCBill alone. I’m finding myself more and more saying, “Damn! That site looks good but they’re with CCBill.”

I think that’s a really telling statement. The convenience of a large program making single payouts vs. smaller outfits each sending individual ones. Of course, with programs that aren’t CCBIll, there would still be the concern about having all ones eggs in one basket, right?

I don’t trust sponsor to know what they are doing, they can often get it wrong when it’s niches they are not familiar with.

Smaller boutique sites are often more likely to get it right and produce much better content, but unfortunately they are also often badly managed by owners

Bjorn, good observation. I like how methodical your performance reviews sound as well.

the level I promote each site depends on how it performs over time rather than who owns it (providing they pay on time).

This related to both boutique sites and Big Box Porn sites. So, if a site performs well, but pays late (different than not at all!) you would promote it less than a site that doesn’t perform as well but pays on time?

Talking about new vs. established, you say

if a new site have a good amount of high quality content and offer visitors good value for money or something very different and exciting then I might give them a bigger push (but only if they use something like CCBill).

Why only if something like CCBill? Just concern they won’t pay, or is it concern about converting?

Good stuff to know!

#6

Re: PHX Panel: Boutique Sites vs. Large Programs

Teddy,

Funny, CCBill must have been getting it from all sides! Karl from YouLoveJack and I have been suggesting a version of this topic to Gary and Scott at CCBill since before last year’s Forum! Must be a topic whose time has come!

I’m not crazy about the label “boutique” though, doesn’t really suggest HOT in a dirty sexy way. Makes me think about buying shoes or something.

#7

[QUOTE=“DirtyBoyAndy;131755”]Teddy,

Funny, CCBill must have been getting it from all sides! Karl from YouLoveJack and I have been suggesting a version of this topic to Gary and Scott at CCBill since before last year’s Forum! Must be a topic whose time has come!

I’m not crazy about the label “boutique” though, doesn’t really suggest HOT in a dirty sexy way. Makes me think about buying shoes or something.[/QUOTE]

Gary prolly choose the word “Boutique” (I hear he’s one of those homosexual theater queens).

I myself would have called it niche sites.

J/k of course.

#8

Re: PHX Panel: Boutique Sites vs. Large Programs

Andy I will be on that panel as well. It should definitely be interesting!

#9

Re: PHX Panel: Boutique Sites vs. Large Programs

I guess I misunderstood what a boutique site was. (I had never heard the term before.) I assumed it was a solo site versus a big program like single store versus shopping malls. If you’re referring to boutique as a niche site like Stocky Dudes, I don’t have a problem promoting sites like that if they fit somewhere in my network of blogs.

Yes, I guess it falls under customer service. With DHD, I wasn’t ever sure I got the tracking code right, so I wasn’t confident I was going to earn commission. I don’t promote any site using Zombaio either because they extract some pretty high fees to get your money, I think they were charging $30 to get you payout.

Yes. Island Studs has a big watermark right across the middle of their pictures, sometimes across faces, chests, or cocks. I’ve talked to the site owner about it, but he’s adamant about using them and thinks his sales have increased since he did it. I just throw his mailers away and don’t even look at them.

Same with Cash Kaboom. I love most of their sites, love their content, but every picture has a watermark, albeit small, in a prominent spot and it changes on each pic, sometimes beside a head, sometimes beside a cock … it makes it difficult to make good-looking collages.

I understand that sites want to protect their content, but come one, we’re talking about pictures. Yes, people used to have vast libraries of pictures, now they have vast libraries of videos. There’s also the issue that intrusive watermarks could be stealing sales from affiliates: I’m making the collage, I’m hosting it, I should be paid for a sale. There’s already enough working against us with people disabling cookies, etc., this is just one more way an affiliate can lose a sale.

Yes, I promoted a program of boyfriend sites that ended up being 28% of my sales. That hurt a lot when the program tanked.

I don’t like having to chase my money. There are some programs I have on a very short leash.

For me, the problem with CCBill is the lousy conversions. I have an example of one site that I could hardly make sales even though it was in my preferred niche. When the site moved to a Big Box Program, suddenly it started selling. It’s now one of my better sellers.

CCBill conversion rates are often double everyone else’s. And then there’s the mythological scrub, those periods where you can go for days and days with no or very bad sales. But of course there’s never any comment from CCBill has to whether they were scrubbing or the Scotch tape fell off the server and had to be replaced.

CCBill pays on time consistently. But they’re admin area is a pain in the butt and it’s sooooooooooooo slow. We’ve complained about it for years, but they don’t fix it.

Epoch’s admin area is also atrocious, you can never find out where a sale came from in your network. But Epoch also pays like clock work, so we put up with it.

But both CCBill and Epoch are losing in the processing game. Both processors need a drastic over haul and both systems need to look at some other way of tracking sales instead of cookies because there are more and more things happening that demonstrate that using cookies alone is costing affiliates commissions.

#10

Re: PHX Panel: Boutique Sites vs. Large Programs

[QUOTE=DirtyBoyAndy;131731]

  1. Large programs have resources to run all kinds of ads on the boards, etc. but smaller ‘boutique’ sites devote their energy and time to producing their site. So, whether or not you decide to promote them, how do you learn about new sites, large or small?[/QUOTE]

I find them through recommendation by others, or just search on some of the key words and check out what others are promoting in a niche. There are some gems out there not on the big programs. I also work with a few programs in copy creation so when a new site is added to their program I might give it a try.

[QUOTE=DirtyBoyAndy;131731]
2. What criteria do you use to choose which sites or programs to promote? Do you run with a program, promoting any/all sites they have, trusting that they know what they are doing? Or do you pick and choose among their offerings? [/QUOTE]

I only promote the content I have an interest in, or that I think suits a niche. I’m signed up with most of the large programs, but I’ll only really promote a few of their sites. For instance, I don’t really do twink porn, but I do promote British guys, so on IndieBucks I’ll promote BlakeMason and maybe BoyNapped occasionally, but not the rest. I also review the sales over a couple of months and if it’s not good I’ll drop them. Errors and communication are also important for me, if there’s a problem I spot and I don’t get assistance with it, my confidence in them is shot and I’ll move on to something else.

[QUOTE=DirtyBoyAndy;131731]
3. Do you take into account how long running and established a site/program is or just run with the newest figuring the new sites will sell simply because they are new? Or do look to balance between the two?[/QUOTE]

It doesn’t really bother me if a program or site is new. In fact, that can go in its favor. Some of the best converting sites for me are not promoted by everyone else and therefore the business isn’t saturated with their content.

[QUOTE=DirtyBoyAndy;131731]
4. Lastly, do you prefer promoting large programs who focus their marketing to affiliates vs individual boutique sites that are branded and marketed to consumers? Or does that just not matter?[/QUOTE]

I prefer small boutique sites on CCBill, ones that are a one-man show, because they seem to convert for me. That might be because fewer people are promoting them, or it might be the way the content is delivered and the style of the site, I don’t know. Ultimately I’m going to go where the money is, and in my own experience (this is just me) I can get more sales on a CCBill site run by one or two guys than I can on most of the programs.

This also comes down to content availability though. There are some great sites out there running things on their own, but their delivery of affiliate content is so bad it’s too difficult to promote them, for example EnglishLads. There are also programs with poor affiliate content delivery, like William Higgins and zBuckz. If the content isn’t there in the affiliate area for me to collect and use on a regular basis, then I’ll give up on them and promote a competitor for a few months. It’s kind of pointless for sites/programs like those to release affiliate content two months after it’s been on the site, most of my sales come from fresh content, where a surfer sees something new, clicks through, finds it on the landing page and signs up to see it. I don’t want to be promoting something that’s two months old unless I think it has something specific about it worth promoting - like a fetish, star or act that suits my audience.

#11

Re: PHX Panel: Boutique Sites vs. Large Programs

[QUOTE=DirtyBoyAndy;131754]Great feedback!

This related to both boutique sites and Big Box Porn sites. So, if a site performs well, but pays late (different than not at all!) you would promote it less than a site that doesn’t perform as well but pays on time?
[/QUOTE]

I used the wrong words. I don’t mind if a payment is a couple of weeks late, it’s more about if someone does not pay at all. If payments go missing, if I don’t get paid for a long time or if I suspect that someone have cash-flow problems then I remove them from my site until I feel confident to promote them again (or until I’m paid whats owed). Any sponsor that keeps having problems with payment I’ll avoid. A good example was SatyrBucks, they sold very well with some really impressive conversion ratios and great niche content but they continuously “forgot” to send payments and had to be reminded before sending anything, in the end I stopped and removed all advertising.

Yes, entirely because of not getting paid. There is absolutely no way to guarantee that a new sponsor or site that’s using NATS or any other self-hosted solution will actually pay you. It’s something I’ve learned the hard way with a lot of new sites having payments issues. They blame it on everything from their “staff” not doing their job to NATS not working properly… it’s never ever their own fault… I’ve heard every excuse you can imagine.

With CCBill there is at least some degree of saftey with a 3rd party holding the money which otherwise sponsors or site owners might get tempted in spending… which is what happens I think.

I don’t trust Epoch. A majority of new sites setup under Epoch do not give credit for affiliate sales. Epoch for some unknown reason have a default setting that gives affiliates $0 for each sale. I’ve complained so many times to them and nothing done about it.

#12

Re: PHX Panel: Boutique Sites vs. Large Programs

Maybe someone should actually say this out loud on the panel, so the army of reps in Epoch shirts will actually get something done about this. Or at least ask the question from the floor? Nothing better than a higher up embarrassed in front of a crowd to get some ass kicking happening.