Can we talk about Buddy Profits / Next Door Studio?

Webmaster Discussion
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#21

Re: Can we talk about Buddy Profits / Next Door Studio?

[QUOTE=rawTOP;113265]
Honestly, I was really disappointed when many of you listed Buddy Profits as one of your top sponsors. So I guess my question is what does it mean for us as gay men that Buddy Profits is one of the top selling sponsors? Do any of you have problems with it like I do? I mean I’ll promote Buddy Profit’s non-Next Door sites - like Colt and Falcon (0.38% of my revenue comes from them), but I just can’t bring myself to promote Next Door Studio sites… It just seems wrong on so many levels…

I’d love to hear from those of you who think Buddy Profits is OK… Convince me I’m wrong on all this…[/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t judge Buddy Profits or any other sponsor program based on how some of their performers act. My own limited experience of porn stars have been very mixed, some are very nice and intelligent guys, others are self obsessed, exceptionally unreliable and rude. I do think it’s unfortunate that these Next Door models have not been a credit to their employers and not made the brand any favours. But I’m not surprised at all, that kind of behaviour is exactly why I don’t go to these things. I really don’t want to be a part of that side of the industry. I’m in it to make money, nothing else.

It sounds very familiar to me though. When I used to go out on the gay scene in London I encountered exactly the same thing by other gay men. The club scene in London was made up by the most self-obsessed, horrible and judgemental crowd of people I’ve ever encountered. Most of the “beautiful” people would never talk to me because I wasn’t big and muscular, it was as if I didn’t exist. Then suddenly because I knew certain people, could afford expensive clothes and had access to VIP areas they wanted to be best friends, like flies on shit.

I support and work with Buddy Profits because they through my brilliant rep Ewan have been very helpful. Ewan always goes the extra mile and helps me out with whatever requests I might have. For example when we interviewed some of their stars he arranged for them to do it on video exclusively for GayDemon. If he isn’t around or away on holiday, he always lets me know who I can contact instead. Or when I requested cross-sales to be removed they did exactly that from my tour links! Compare that to some other sponsors who a year later I’m still waiting for them to return the interview answers!

But most of all, they / Buddy Profits are very professional and run like a proper business. I have never wondered or cared if they are straight or gay. What difference does that make in business? As long as they are good to work with, run a tight ship, reliable and most of all performs well then I’m satisfied and will continue to promote them.

I’m a bit surprised that Buddy Profits are highlighted as something bad when there are plenty of companies that people support and make money on which have far bigger real issues. Isn’t it more important to avoid companies that bang credit cards or have stolen or questionable content? I was far more disappointed when people kept selling Gay Gravy even when some of us highlighted the fact they were involved in credit card fraud.

#22

Re: Can we talk about Buddy Profits / Next Door Studio?

[QUOTE=msm;113298]

Brandon, it sounds like you were able to break into some of the industry cliqs (maybe because you look so cuddly) but whenever I’ve been to these things the only people that would talk to me are sales people wanting to sell me something and the few first timers like me who I could find. [/QUOTE]

…hehehe I am cuddly… but really, I am just not afraid to talk to people. Also, I tend to have a good sense of who the genuine people are. :wink: Thanks.

#23

Re: Can we talk about Buddy Profits / Next Door Studio?

Well, I’ve seen the Treasure Island guys swarming at IML - that part is just about the same. The difference is you know they’ll be bent over taking loads from strangers later at some bathhouse, club or hotel room. lol

So doesn’t Next Door’s policy on poz performers seem off to you? I think a lot of my issues stem from that. It seems hostile to a big part of the gay community, so when I see other stuff that supports that image it seems connected.

#24

Re: Can we talk about Buddy Profits / Next Door Studio?

I hope you’re pushing PPV’s new sites (Raw Fuck Club, Black Breeders, Raw & Rough, etc.) Their old sites suck and don’t convert nearly as well.

#25

Re: Can we talk about Buddy Profits / Next Door Studio?

I’ve been reading this post. I have to agree with Steve/desslock but I like to add a few things. I don’t go to many events, in the past I have attended Internext and a few small events but our main event that we attended is The Phoenix Forum (although I haven’t gone in the past 2 years). In my past experience I felt The Phoenix Forum was the best to attend. I’ve never had issues with people and I’ve met many in our industry. The Phoenix Forum seems to be the only event that everyone is laid back and gets business done!

I have all the respect in the world for the next door male/buddy profit team. Every time I meet them at TPF, I’ve always felt welcome and they have been super kind to me. Anyone who has attended TPF over the years knows that Buddy Profit brings there models to the forum each year. I’ve seen them bring at least 5-8 guys at a time and even more! However, in my experience…these guys do travel in a group. The “eye-candy” is great…but no personality, they are all mechanical and limited in conversation and they limit themselves to whom they interact with.

I take no offense to this and anyone who is familiar with these models and has experience by going to TPF over the years, this doesn’t come to any surprise to me. Those that have attended TPF over the years know that these models are great “eye-candy” but don’t expect them to run around with “peppy” personalities screaming “woo” around the pool area.

#26

Re: Can we talk about Buddy Profits / Next Door Studio?

[QUOTE=rawTOP;113339]Well, I’ve seen the Treasure Island guys swarming at IML - that part is just about the same. The difference is you know they’ll be bent over taking loads from strangers later at some bathhouse, club or hotel room. lol

So doesn’t Next Door’s policy on poz performers seem off to you? I think a lot of my issues stem from that. It seems hostile to a big part of the gay community, so when I see other stuff that supports that image it seems connected.[/QUOTE]

maybe its just me but comparing Next Door to Treasure Island or comparing Phoenix Forum to IML seems like your comparing salt to pepper. Yes there both spices but belong on different dishes. just saying. And i was at the pool myself when that exact picture was taken. I will say your avatar looks very much like you. :slight_smile: I do get your point. But for me. I hung out with certain models a whole bunch. They were all very nice to me. I didn’t see the same issues everyone else did. But I did hear people having mixed reviews. All i can say is Samuel O’Toole, Marcus Mojo, and Johnny Torque were very nice to me all weekend. (as i mainly only spoke with them) but also, there models. I was their to network and find new business. And talking to their bosses would accomplish this far faster then talking to the models.

And on a last note. Tommy Defendi is my favorite. He was a sweet heart! he has always been. And always will be. It was great to see him their for Cocky Boys. :slight_smile:

#27

Their, There, or They’re? Then & Than?

http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/

There, I said it. My head no longer hurts.

#28

Re: Can we talk about Buddy Profits / Next Door Studio?

[QUOTE=Seth;113383]Their, There, or They’re? Then & Than?

http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/

There, I said it. My head no longer hurts.[/QUOTE]

Thank you, Seth! I thought I was the only one whose head got spinning while reading!

#29

Re: Can we talk about Buddy Profits / Next Door Studio?

I seriously waited to post, hoping somebody else would do it first.

Oh, and yes, I do realize one shouldn’t throw stones from a glass house. :slight_smile:

#30

Re: Can we talk about Buddy Profits / Next Door Studio?

Anyway, my partner and I have been to one show/forum. It was Vegas, shortly after we got started in this biz. Something like 2001 or 2002. Met some great people. Only a tiny handful are still around… It was a fun time but nothing I could justify doing again unless I was looking to take a vacation at the same time.

We always find ourselves way to busy with work and other life things to break away during these things.

As for the cliquishness of certain people/groups, I say grow a pair. What are we 16 in high school again? Call them on it. Say grow the fuck up & get over yourselves.

Like almost any other, this business is about making money, and little more. Obviously, some others see it differently and treat it only as a party/hookup opportunity. I suppose that’s fine for them but I really can’t be bothered.

#31

Re: Can we talk about Buddy Profits / Next Door Studio?

[QUOTE=rawTOP;113339]
So doesn’t Next Door’s policy on poz performers seem off to you? I think a lot of my issues stem from that. It seems hostile to a big part of the gay community, so when I see other stuff that supports that image it seems connected.[/QUOTE]

That’s separate issues - performers being unfriendly or rude and Buddy Profits HIV policy.

I don’t discuss barebacking or HIV any more. It’s such a loaded subject and far too many strong opinions about it. But isn’t it quite obvious that your own views about barebacking, HIV and safe sex will never correspond or be the same as a Buddy Profits? By the way we did interview and publish Mason’s side of the Buddy Profits POZ story at GayDemon.

#32

Re: Can we talk about Buddy Profits / Next Door Studio?

[QUOTE=gaydemon;113390]That’s separate issues - performers being unfriendly or rude and Buddy Profits HIV policy.

I don’t discuss barebacking or HIV any more. It’s such a loaded subject and far too many strong opinions about it. But isn’t it quite obvious that your own views about barebacking, HIV and safe sex will never correspond or be the same as a Buddy Profits? By the way we did interview and publish Mason’s side of the Buddy Profits POZ story at GayDemon.[/QUOTE]

Yes, most people here have focused on the least important issue - let’s just say “to what degree the models were good ambassadors for the brand”. That was the least important issue of the ones I brought up initially.

I’m not asking Next Door Studios to bareback (though they now have a bareback site so that seal seems to have been broken). This isn’t about barebacking. Barebacking and HIV are completely separate issues - it’s just those in the bareback community tend to be more sensitive to issues surrounding HIV - even those of us who are neg.

So what you’re left with is you saying Next Door and I will never agree on issues surrounding HIV. WHY??? Michael said it was a health and safety issue. I was dead serious when I said the SAFEST, LEAST INFECTIOUS performer they can deal with are poz guys who are on meds. There is a mountain of studies at this point that support that conclusion. Next Door could monitor the performers’ viral loads like they monitor neg guys’ statuses. That, combined with safe sex (I’m not asking them to bareback), results in about the lowest risk one can imagine. I’m also not asking them to force anyone to work with a poz model. Though honestly, with viral load testing and condoms, I fail to see how HIV is an issue. Still, if someone tells them they refuse to have safe sex with an undetectable poz guy - then so be it.

There’s really not much to disagree about here if you take a fact-based look at the issues. I just think it’s repulsive that they act as if poz models are worthless and shouldn’t be touched. That bugs me deeply and I’m not even poz. It’s based on fear and not understanding basic facts of how HIV is transmitted. It’s like the person Jasun mentioned, who thinks you can get HIV from having safe sex with a negative person, made up the policy.

The other issue was the body-image issue and how that type of porn tells guys, like my boyfriend, who are in shape, that they’re fat. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve heard him say “I can’t hookup, I’m flabby” when he’s 135 pounds instead of 128. Please… But even that issue one could brush away with “it’s fantasy”, and I’d almost accept it except for the impact I see it having on guys like my boyfriend.

The other issues are not nearly as big as Next Door’s active discrimination against a big part of the gay community, by a straight studio. I’d be more tolerant of the policy if it were a gay guy who went through the death of lovers and friends and just can’t come to terms with the new reality - that HIV just isn’t what it used to be - not all of us got past that stage. But straight people who are in it just as a business don’t get to play that card.

Honestly, this thread has left me a bit speechless… I’m just flabbergasted that so many gay men are OK with discrimination against poz guys. Guys, these are our gay brothers we’re talking about. Michael - you really don’t have to sit in the back of the bus - on meds, you’re safer to have sex with than a neg guy. It’s time demand a seat in the front of the bus… [Sorry if that analogy escapes those of you who aren’t American. Check out the story of Rosa Parks if it doesn’t sound familiar.]

#33

Re: Can we talk about Buddy Profits / Next Door Studio?

rawtop,

Please don’t speak for me. I in no way feel that I’m sitting at the back of the bus. And Next Door Studios is not making me feel that way, nor have they ever made me feel “worthless and shouldn’t be touched.”

For the record, the staff at Next Door Studios have always treated me professionally and with kindness. In spite of the fact that I send them maybe two sales a month, they still invited me to an expensive dinner and Priscilla a year ago along with other webmasters. Every NDS employee in attendance came up and introduced themselves to me and my partner, engaged us in conversation, and thanked us for joining them.

And frankly, I think you’re way off base, but I’m not going to continue this conversation because it’s pointless. It’s too bad that you didn’t keep this thread on topic, i.e. porn stars behaving badly at a conference. Dragging in the whole Mason Wyler thing has nothing to do with what you experienced at the show.

Perhaps if you’d like to continue the perceived poz discrimination subject, you could start a new thread so that those who aren’t interested in it could ignore it.

And again, please don’t put words in my mouth or thoughts in my head.

#34

Re: Can we talk about Buddy Profits / Next Door Studio?

[QUOTE=dzinerbear;113394]rawtop,

Please don’t speak for me. I in no way feel that I’m sitting at the back of the bus. And Next Door Studios is not making me feel that way, nor have they ever made me feel “worthless and shouldn’t be touched.”

For the record, the staff at Next Door Studios have always treated me professionally and with kindness. In spite of the fact that I send them maybe two sales a month, they still invited me to an expensive dinner and Priscilla a year ago along with other webmasters. Every NDS employee in attendance came up and introduced themselves to me and my partner, engaged us in conversation, and thanked us for joining them.

And frankly, I think you’re way off base, but I’m not going to continue this conversation because it’s pointless. It’s too bad that you didn’t keep this thread on topic, i.e. porn stars behaving badly at a conference. Dragging in the whole Mason Wyler thing has nothing to do with what you experienced at the show.

Perhaps if you’d like to continue the perceived poz discrimination subject, you could start a new thread so that those who aren’t interested in it could ignore it.

And again, please don’t put words in my mouth or thoughts in my head.[/QUOTE]

I’m the OP, I know what the thread is about :slight_smile: It was supposed to be about a lot more than models not being great brand ambassadors…

Before I dropped out to pursue database programming, I was pursuing a Ph.D. in Sociology (with a full fellowship). I’ve been trained to notice when discriminated people buy into social systems that discriminate against them - e.g. working-class Republicans supporting tax breaks for the wealthy. I wasn’t speaking for you, I was commenting on what you said. Lots of blacks quietly accepted sitting in the back of the bus before Rosa Parks (who wasn’t even a radical) sat in the front of the bus. But I find it disheartening when people put up with stuff like that…

#35

Re: Can we talk about Buddy Profits / Next Door Studio?

Sorry if I misread you, but using my name and directing your comment at me sure sounded like you were at least speaking to me and inferring a whole bunch of stuff you couldn’t possibly know about me.

And you’re right about the original post, you did mention both points … my apologies.

#36

Re: Can we talk about Buddy Profits / Next Door Studio?

I honestly don’t agree that Next Door or any other studio (and there are others) is discriminating. As stated previously, it’s a health issue. And yes rawtop, I saw your post about a poz guy on meds, yada yada… so be it, I’ve had numerous friends over the years that were pos, and I have no hang up’s on the subject.

You’re coming across as… for the lack of better wording… “reading to much into it”. Again, many studios will not work with POS performers, many studios will not do bareback, it’s their choice. Is it discriminating, not as I see it. And I don’t feel as though it’s sending a negative message to the gay community nor do my POS friends that have nothing to do with the porn industry. They’re totally fine with it and actually understand/support/agree with studios that choose not to work with POS performers… go figure!

It’s just a matter of perception. I respect your opinion(s) as I’m sure you respect others. After all, they’re like assholes, everyone’s got one! and entitled to their own opinion.

#37

Re: Can we talk about Buddy Profits / Next Door Studio?

Michael - that is your comment that my ‘sitting in the back of the bus’ comment was referring to. Your comment stuck in my head for a day or so after I read it. It seems you’re OK with discrimination if it’s stated clearly up front - just as there used to be signs saying “Negro Entrance”, you’re saying that as long as the studio is upfront about the discrimination, that it’s perfectly OK. That’s pretty much the textbook definition of “second class citizen” - being told you have to put up with unequal treatment… I genuinely don’t understand how you can be OK with that. I’m not even poz and it bugs me - I value my poz friends and don’t want them being told they’re not as good/desirable/etc. as me.

On top of that, “it’s a liability” isn’t factually correct. It’s using bad science (or no science) to justify discrimination. Properly monitored (like neg performers), poz performers can be lower risk than neg performers. The condom can break and there can still be close to zero risk. They pull out for the cum shot anyway, and the performers can stop when the condom breaks and get a new condom… At the same time it’s understandable that some performers may have personal preferences about the status of the guys they have sex with, and it’s completely reasonable for studios to accommodate those preferences, whether the performers are being logical about it or not. Studios can ask those preferences up front and quietly accommodate them without even disclosing the HIV status of the performers.

If the safe sex community stands for anything it should be that poz guys are not lepers - that safe® sex exists and can reduce the spread of HIV. The medical/scientific community is now saying meds are even more effective than condoms. So meds+condoms is a winning combination for those who are worried about risk.

This isn’t a barebackers vs. pro-condom debate - it’s something everyone should agree on. But honestly I feel like the fear of HIV is so deeply rooted, even in the gay community, that people think anti-poz policies are OK. To me, that’s sad. It’s time we had fact-based policies - especially when not doing so perpetuates discrimination.

Those of you who are pro-condom… Imagine for a moment if Next Door had made Mason Wyler’s site into one that featured proud, sexy poz men having safe sex. It would have done more for the safe sex message than you could imagine - it would have been the poster child for the “HIV stops with me” campaign. Instead, Next Door’s response told people to be afraid of poz guys and clearly communicated that they thought it’s never safe to have sex with poz guy - not even when both guys are poz. If you really want the pro-condom message to be taken seriously, you need to fight for opportunities, like Mason Wyler’s becoming poz, when you can communicate your pro-condom message in an affirming, sexy way…

#38

Re: Can we talk about Buddy Profits / Next Door Studio?

I grew up in a fundamentalist household, Jerry Falwell was my pastor for a few years there. When your parent keeps telling you you’re sinning and going to hell because you’re gay, you see things differently. So, no, actually I don’t respect other people’s opinions when they’re factually wrong and simply exist to support fear, bigotry and hatred. That said, I have no problems with bigots living in peace provided they don’t actually hurt others with their discrimination.

Not all opinions are great opinions. Case and point - I conflated innocent-enough stuff into real issues when I started this thread. In hindsight, a porn star acting like a self-absorbed prick isn’t really a big deal - in fact it’s sorta typical and expected. It might be a big deal if all of a company’s models are that way, but my sample size was too small and I probably shouldn’t have brought it up since it weakened my core argument - about a straight company’s treatment of poz gay performers, and a straight company’s pushing a type of porn that makes average gay guys have a bad body image and not feel sexy.

#39

Re: Can we talk about Buddy Profits / Next Door Studio?

From the perspective of a producer, I can somewhat understand a desire to have performers be a bit detached from other ongoings and other people at a show.

There’s some value in having performers there who aren’t fully engaging with show attendees. Sometimes just having them there and visible, while not completely approachable, accomplishes certain tasks. Affiliates might be impressed by certain guys’ appearances to the point of wanting to promote them a bit more once the show’s over; simply projecting having some pretty hot models on board can generate some publicity and build up the image of the brand and company; in blog posts, tweets, and other such viral promotion, it’s not often being pointed out performers might not have been entirely approachable or social so much as they looked hot (and one need only check out Phoenix Forum-related blog posts on countless sites right now to see that Buddy Profits is getting plenty of positive coverage and exposure with nary a mention of models being a bit clique-ish - they look hot in photos and that’s all many of the posters and readers are caring about right now).

Several years ago we attended and sponsored a number of events at a show, and as much as we wanted the performers to engage with everyone we ended up having to pull back from it a bit because…

  • Our performers were constantly getting approached by other producers who tried to poach them to work for them instead. That’s bad form, quite frankly, and the fault of producers who were behaving far more unprofessionally than the models. Encouraging our guys to stick together and hang out in groups helped them avoid some of this. Using Steve/Desslock’s fish school analogy, when a model would stray from the rest it wouldn’t take long for someone to swoop in and pick them off.
  • The performers were constantly being approached and offered “non-professional earning opportunities”. As opposed to offers of scene work or filming, guys were getting hit up to escort by other producers, company reps, etc.
  • Hanging out in a group could help them stay outta trouble. The guys are all friends with one another, and would look out for each other to ensure no one was drinking too much or even trying to sneak away from the event to party it up at some other location on the Strip (this all happened at a Vegas show a number of years ago).

In all honesty, if there were a board for performers like this one for webmasters, I can only imagine the horror stories some of the performers would be posting about following a show - threads about their constantly getting groped, hit on by drunken attendees, offered drugs, offered work behind their producer’s back, and whatever else.

Heading in to the event we sponsored and brought a bunch of performers to, I anticipated many of the issues and sat guys down ahead of time to go through various ways they could politely decline offers and avoid unwanted situations. Following the event, it was quite apparently that sit-down was essential, because all were constantly being approached in ways that made them uncomfortable; oftentimes the only way they could insulate themselves from unwanted offers or solicitations (professional or otherwise) was to pull back from it all and focus on one another - even attempting to come across as withdrawn or unapproachable and too engaged with one another so that they’d be left alone. Mind you, the vast majority of attendees were friendly and made positive impressions upon the performers who, overall, had a lot of fun. The occasional bad experiences kept popping up, though.

#40

Re: Can we talk about Buddy Profits / Next Door Studio?

There are so many sponsors out there that actually harm webmasters, that don’t payout, never answer their email, telephones, those that don’t have gay affiliate managers or any gay guy employed for that matter, those that overcharge their customers… etc… I feel like it’s unfair to judge a company, just because it doesn’t support bareback or doesn’t want to shoot with poz performers, especially if they are infamous for different other reasons…and regarding models… I mean, who expects them to behave with an ounce of dignity, I mean, I would always expect the worse of them, and hope for the best…

Again, a great company, a great affiliate rep, instant replies, no issues with payments.