An instance where there's basically a zero day cookie...

Webmaster Discussion
#1

The other day I realized one of the programs I promote had set things up so even though they set a decent length cookie, they might as well have set the cookie to zero days…

The idea behind affiliate cookies is if the visitor comes back to the site the affiliate gets credit for the sale, but the bottom line is that sites with multiple processors may send your return traffic to a processor that doesn’t take your cookie into consideration.

In the case in question the program had a separate tour for affiliate traffic (but the same thing would happen if they offered both a CCBill and Epoch affiliate program). Anyone who came back to the site by typing in the domain name got the non-affiliate tour and was sent to a different billing processor which would never see the affiliate’s cookie. The only time the cookie was used was if the person bookmarked the affiliate tour and came back to that particular page. If they remembered the name of the site and typed in the URL, or Googled the name, the affiliate lost his/her commission.

I know they’re not the only program doing something like that, and I’m sure they never intended to take sales away from affiliates, but that is the bottom line.

I’m now trying to remember all the programs I’ve signed up for that offered a choice of an Epoch or a CCBill affiliate program to make sure I’m on the program that’s used for traffic going to the main page of the site.

#2

Re: An instance where there’s basically a zero day cookie…

You mean Butch Dixon, Uk Naked Men?

Maybe XstraightGuy and Dzinerbear can explain this.

#3

Re: An instance where there’s basically a zero day cookie…

[QUOTE=milivanili;43110]You mean Butch Dixon, Uk Naked Men?

Maybe XstraightGuy and Dzinerbear can explain this.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t really want to mention them by name - they’re hardly the only ones who do it. I’ve switched to UKNM’s Epoch program which handles that site’s organic and type in traffic. I know it means nothing, but already made a sale after 64 clicks!

#4

Re: An instance where there’s basically a zero day cookie…

I mentioned them because Michael and XStraightguy are here so I am interested in reply.

Ofcourse they are not the only sites that are doing this. But basically that ccbill cookie is valid only if people coming from my site purchase membership that same session. Otherwise it’s all gone…

Anyway, it is obviosly time to review who I promote…and where my traffic goes.

#5

Re: An instance where there’s basically a zero day cookie…

If you come across other programs with the same problem can you list them here? I KNOW there are others I promote, but I haven’t reviewed them all so don’t know for sure.

And I’d like to point out that there are not-too-difficult ways to fix this problem… Let’s take UKNM… Their CCBill link code looks like this:

http://refer.ccbill.com/cgi-bin/clicks.cgi?CA=931956-0000&PA=1840384

But after the redirect it goes to the following URL:

http://www.uknakedmen.com/tour/index.html?CA=931956-0000&PA=1840384

Notice that they have all the information they need in there… Even if I use an &HTML parameter in the CCBill URL they still get all the extra parameters they need. All they have to do at that point is set a cookie for their site saying that user should be processed by CCBill, and then that cookie should be detected and the URLs on the join pages should go to CCBill join pages, or the join page itself should detect the processor cookie and adapt and change it’s links to CCBill.

Since UKNM has both CCBill and Epoch affiliate programs they should actually do this in both directions and set the processor cookie to Epoch as well. Once it’s done, there’s really no need for two tours - they can go to just having one tour since the traffic is separated using a cookie, not by physical directory.

That raises another issue… My boyfriend (who actually buys porn) doesn’t like CCBill for some reason. If UKNM’s processor cookie were blank/null then they could show a button saying “Prefer to pay with CCBill” and they might get a few more sales.

#6

Re: An instance where there’s basically a zero day cookie…

Okay, have to ask…

How long do you want cookies to last on traffic?

I have to admit, that it never really occurred to me to expect a cookie to last more than a session or a day.

#7

Re: An instance where there’s basically a zero day cookie…

[QUOTE=Maryflixxx;43137]Okay, have to ask…

How long do you want cookies to last on traffic?

I have to admit, that it never really occurred to me to expect a cookie to last more than a session or a day.[/QUOTE]

I think the standard is 30 days, but there were a few threads a while back about cookie duration. And a bunch of programs upped their cookie length to 90, 180, and even 365 days.

Some will tell you it doesn’t make much of a difference others will say it does. I’d guess it does make a difference on sites that are strongly branded since people remember the name and type it in later. I think it was Lloyd who said he’s seen affiliates make sales right up to the 30 day mark that can only be attributed to cookies, but he’s dealing with a well-known site with great branding. But to be fair in that case it was the sponsor who is primarily responsible for the great branding, not the affiliate (so much). So it’s really a balancing act to give each party what’s fair.

Here’s one of the threads…
http://www.gaydemon.biz/showthread.php?t=3369

Frankly, the sponsors can have whatever they want to have - but they need to make sure they don’t make claims that aren’t true, and the affiliates need to know what they’re getting. In the end the programs give what they want to affiliates and if the affiliates don’t like it, they promote other sponsors.

#8

Re: An instance where there’s basically a zero day cookie…

Standard up until recently was 3 days. Then 7. Now 30.

Ours are 30.

When you go to our affiliate entrance you’ll get the cookie of the person who sent you. If you go to our top level domain that cookie isn’t over-written. Some programs do, some don’t.

My philosophy has always been that the good programs sell, the bad ones don’t. If you’re choosing your programs JUST on things like cookie length, traffic leaks and % payouts without choosing a program that sells for you, you might want to re-evaluate that.

#9

Re: An instance where there’s basically a zero day cookie…

Cookies, sessions, whatever. I really am not enough of a pencil geek to bother, because for me the bottom line is what I make. Did I leave some on the table, maybe, but when I don’t make sales, I don’t go looking at the cookies.

I look at the program for any changes, but I concentrate on what I have done, to make sure I am not using ‘hairy beefy guys’ to describe a twink. Or forgetting to add pictures to the post, long before I even think about looking at cookies, sessions, or any of that stuff.

But then again, I am weird. Maybe that’s why I am happy with what I make? Go figure whistle

#10

Re: An instance where there’s basically a zero day cookie…

I am not ignoring this thread; however, I had to wait for my biz partner Jim to start his day so we could discuss this. (Jim’s a night guy and I rise with the sun.) We’re also in the midst of a server move and doing some tweaking and redesigning of our tour.

I’m tired, so I’ll address this issue at some point over the next day or so.

Thanks
Michael

#11

Re: An instance where there’s basically a zero day cookie…

The standard ccbill cookie is 3 days. But I think its up to the program owner to change that to whatever they want. The point is that the longer the cookie session the more likely that a reseller is accredited for a deserved sale and hence will be more motivated to promote that particular program.

We have set our ccbill cookie to 30 days. :slight_smile:

#12

Re: An instance where there’s basically a zero day cookie…

This has nothing to do with 30 day or 7 day cookie.

It’s about using two different billing companies; one for the webmaster tour, and one for organic search or bookmarked traffic.

Webmaster does not get credited for any sale made within the cookie length; unless it is instant.

#13

Re: An instance where there’s basically a zero day cookie…

I have done an incredible amount of work on Butch Dixon where SEO is involved. And we wanted to be able to manipulate that traffic in whatever way gave us the biggest return on our investment of times and resources.

The problem that we faced is that:

(a) we find that Epoch converts best;

(b) most affiliates want to work with CCBill and not Epoch;

© we did not have the investment needed to set up a NATS or MPA3 scenario.

So, we set up Epoch on the “house” tour to capitalize on the huge volumes of traffic we’re getting from Google. And CCBill has it’s own CLOSED tour for affiliates. If you send traffic via your CCBill referral link, it can not get to “house” tour. If you’ll check your Butch Dixon CCBill referral links you’ll see that your traffic is going to www.butchdixon.com/tour/index.html — that’s the CCBill closed tour.

And if traffic that you send to the CCBill tour and that traffic bookmarks the site, they are bookmarking the CCBill homepage. I’ve just tested it and when I return via the bookmark, I am driected to the closed CCBill tour (not the homepage on the root of the domain) and my CCBill referral ID is still carrying in the join process. So there’s really no issue here.

And we have a 30-day cookie, which we feel is reasonable.

We wanted to have the ability to manually change billers on our home tour whenever we wanted, and we wanted to do this without taking money away from affiliates, hence the closed CCBill tour.

We did not set up an Epoch affiliate program because Jim’s experience with UKNM showed that next to no affiliates signed up through Epoch. To date we’ve had one affiliate ask about an Epoch program, and that’s not enough to warrant maintaining a third separate tour.

rawtop has suggested we implement some cookie process to resolve the issue and would also now accommodate a fourth factor, that his partner and surfers like him don’t like signing up CCBill. Fair enough.

However, we are not technical guys and we’re not going to start messing around with cookies, which could possibly screw up the system for those affiliates who aren’t having a problem. We’re not technically comfortable tackling this issue, which means we need to hire someone to do it for us.

The whole cookie-based referral system is fragile to begin with, we’re not about to much around with something we know little about.

The fact is that most of our affiliates aren’t having an issue with the status quo. Two affiliates, one of whom has never generated a Butch Dixon sale, are having a problem with this set up. I’m sorry, we’re doing the very best we can.

I would also like it noted during this public crucification that I have now spent one hour on the phone with Rawtop, about another two to three hours writing private messages, two hours on the phone with my partner, Jim, discussing the issue and the various solutions, and now another hour writing this post. So before Butch Dixon is skewered for not caring about affiliates, let me remind everyone that we have now spent between 6 and 7 hours dealing with an affiliate who has not produced a single sale for us. I don’t know if a lot of other programs would have bothered.

We are going to look at the possibility of using CCBill’s cascade. Apparently this will give us the best of both possible worlds. I don’t know when we’ll do this, at the moment we’re involved with a server move. However, we should be able to get this set up (if it’s indeed the right option) this summer.

If you’d like to bear with us, we appreciate it; and if not, we understand.

Cheers
Michael & Jim
dzinerbear & xstr8guy
BUTCH DIXON

#14

Re: An instance where there’s basically a zero day cookie…

Michael - No one is trying to crucify you. I think it’s safe to say we all like you… :slight_smile: But this is a business forum and this is a business issue for those of us who are affiliates. This issue does affect our conversion ratios and it’s one of many things we should take into consideration. This isn’t going to stop me from promoting you, but the moment you offer an Epoch affiliate program (that directs visitors to the front page of your site, like UKNM) I’ll change over to that in a heartbeat because that’s your “front door” processor and I’ll get credited with more sales that way… And yes, I understand you may want to spend your energy on other priorities - that’s completely understandable…

#15

Re: An instance where there’s basically a zero day cookie…

All this geek stuff gives me a headache, but I really don’t get all this.

The affiliate promotes Butch Dixon, a surfer gets a cookie that lasts for 30 days, so at any time he uses a bookmark to go to Butch Dixon, the affiliate will get credit.

And the complaint is, that if he types it in, the affiliate won’t get credit?

So, how do you KNOW that the surfer is typing it in, based on what he saw at the affiliate’s page, and not from doing other surfing, or searching for a keyword, that pops up a butch dixon or other, site, and it titillates his fancy so he goes there, remembers he saw a post a few weeks earlier, or not, surfs further and signs up?

Sounds to me a bit weird to be assuming a type in is based on what an affiliate posted weeks earlier, and isn’t due to seeing some other reference?

Then too, what about a surfer who goes to affiliate A, reads the post, does a quick look, says nah, then goes to affiliate B, prefers the post there, which gets him hot, and he signs up, why should A get any credit?

Why I think many waste way too much time worrying about cookies and all, instead of just trying to make the sale the old fashioned way, convince the surfer to buy now.

For the record, I hate the term surfer, because they are customers, in my world.

#16

Re: An instance where there’s basically a zero day cookie…

GayStoryMan - The point is simply that everything else being equal, sites set up the way we’re talking about won’t convert quite as well as other sites that appear at first glance to have the same settings. If you see a site with a separate tour for affiliates and different processors for front door traffic, then you should take it into consideration in the same manner you consider whether they pay 50%, 60%, PPS, or they split fees, etc. Of course, you have to give every program some time to see how your traffic likes the site - it’s just one of many factors, but those other factors are discussed on here all the time so it’s appropriate to discuss this as well. Ultimately, we’re all here to make money and the program settings (along with many other things) do affect your bottom line.

In the case mentioned above you’ve just heard that Epoch converts better for UKNM and part of that may be due to the fact that affiliates get a certain number of returning customers that they don’t get with the CCBill affiliate program. Yet you’ve also heard most affiliates choose CCBill. IMHO, given what has been said the smart affiliate would change over to Epoch. It’s all just information we can use to make better business decisions - that’s all…

#17

Re: An instance where there’s basically a zero day cookie…

[quote=rawTOP;43193]GayStoryMan - The point is simply that everything else being equal, sites set up the way we’re talking about won’t convert quite as well as other sites that appear at first glance to have the same settings. If you see a site with a separate tour for affiliates and different processors for front door traffic, then you should take it into consideration in the same manner you consider whether they pay 50%, 60%, PPS, or they split fees, etc. Of course, you have to give every program some time to see how your traffic likes the site - it’s just one of many factors, but those other factors are discussed on here all the time so it’s appropriate to discuss this as well. Ultimately, we’re all here to make money and the program settings (along with many other things) do affect your bottom line.

In the case mentioned above you’ve just heard that Epoch converts better for UKNM and part of that may be due to the fact that affiliates get a certain number of returning customers that they don’t get with the CCBill affiliate program. Yet you’ve also heard most affiliates choose CCBill. IMHO, given what has been said the smart affiliate would change over to Epoch. It’s all just information we can use to make better business decisions - that’s all…[/quote]

and in all that, you didn’t answer the question at all.

If a customer types in Butch Dixon, they go to a non affiliate coded page, and if they buy, you don’t get credit, and that is somehow a huge problem for some affiliates? HOW?

You are assuming that they typed it in because of your post, as an affiliate, but again, HOW DO YOU KNOW?

What I am reading into all this ‘cookie’ nonsense, is you (affiliates) are wanting the type in traffic, that frankly, you more than likely did not earn.

So instead of all the pontificating, and dancing around the issue, be nice to have a real answer. You want the type in traffic, without KNOWING that it is from you. Right or Wrong?

#18

Re: An instance where there’s basically a zero day cookie…

[QUOTE=Gaystoryman;43196]and in all that, you didn’t answer the question at all.

If a customer types in Butch Dixon, they go to a non affiliate coded page, and if they buy, you don’t get credit, and that is somehow a huge problem for some affiliates? HOW?[/QUOTE]

I purposely didn’t answer the question because that’s not the issue in my mind. This is simply a matter of certain programs not giving as many sales to affiliates as is standard in the industry. The vast majority of programs would give the affiliate the sale when they come back during the duration of the cookie - no matter how they came back.

I’m not going to get into a debate of whether the affiliate deserves the sale or not. The issue is that some programs think the affiliate only deserves the sale if it’s bookmark traffic to an affiliate encoded page. Others think the affiliate deserves the sale because the affiliate was the last one (or first one) to refer the customer to the brand, which the customer remembered and either Googled or typed in. I see both sides of the issue. But unlike other settings (like general cookie duration, and the percent of rev share), this is one setting which affects the bottom line and may not be apparent to many affiliates.

I really am not upset about any of this… Some programs give me 40%, others has high as 65%, other programs pay me $20 PPS, and yet others $40 PPS. Am I upset at the $20 PPS or the 40% rev share? Absolutely not, but it is one of many factors I consider when I figure out how hard I try to promote someone. Jake Cruise pays 60% and converts really well for me. Because of that combination, I’ve gone through some really time-consuming shit to promote them. Would I do that for $20 PPS or a rev-share only on the initial sale - probably not unless I saw performance after an easy test. It all comes down to the revenue per click, but things like this can predict the revenue per click before you spend a lot of time promoting a program.

#19

Re: An instance where there’s basically a zero day cookie…

It’s not crucifixion it’s discussion.

I never really realized this was happening until I read this post and took a closer look. Now at least I know why BD and UKNM are not converting as good for me as many other sites that I promote!

#20

Re: An instance where there’s basically a zero day cookie…

You mean it has nothing to do with your mostly TGP traffic? I’m not going to discuss the specifics your conversions in public, but they are astronomical. Certainly out of whack with most webmasters who are working with us.

We must remember that not all traffic is equal. I do have webmasters and sites sending me sales every day. I also have a tube site converting at 1:1100 and another at 1:500, so traffic might be traffic to some, but it’s obviously different.

At any rate, I am putting the finishing touches on a new tour with a coulour change. A few people have mentioned the grey sucks the life out of our content, so we’re going to be trying some new things. We’ve already done some tweaking on the existing tour and it seems to be making a difference. We’ll keep you posted.

Cheers
Michael